PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE
Carer's Leave Bill - 9 November 2022 (Commons/Public Bill Committees)

I congratulate the hon. Member on getting a Bill to this stage, and welcome the Government’s support for it. I, too, pay tribute to the army of carers out there. I am part of the all-party parliamentary group on carers, and carers tell me that the ideal situation would be to get paid leave for carers in the longer term. The Bill is a good step forward, but will she join me and carers organisations in asking the Government to look seriously at that, and to bring back paid leave for carers?

I welcome this private Member’s Bill and the Government’s support for it. Does the hon. Member agree that this is a timely Bill, particularly with more women going into the workplace? Women of my generation are very much the sandwich generation: we have elderly parents and children. Also, with medical advancements, more children are surviving disabilities that they might have died from earlier. That means that there is an increased pressure on families to provide care for children as they grow older.

I commend the hon. Lady on her work, and the Government on their support for this important Bill. She will not be surprised to learn that more than one in 10 residents in my constituency are a carer for a loved one or near neighbour. My understanding from my constituents and the business community is that they are supportive of the Bill, and that employers may fear nothing from it. Those with caring responsibilities do not even tend to take the allowance given to them, but the flexibility and recognition is what makes it so incredibly valuable.

It is a delight to be a member of this Bill Committee. I congratulate the hon. Member for North East Fife on bringing the Bill, and I am absolutely delighted that the Government are supporting it.

Unusually, we find ourselves in violent agreement on the reasons behind the Bill. Prior to the pandemic, it was calculated that about 4.9 million people across the country were juggling some kind of unpaid care with paid work. As the hon. Lady said, it is almost impossible to quantify that work because so many carers do not identify themselves as such and often go without the support and help they need. We know that such caring work has an almost unquantifiable impact on their lives and causes undue stress. As a result, those people may find that they have to leave the workforce.

Many of us never consider that we might become unpaid carers, but Carers UK has calculated that two thirds of us will end up fulfilling that role at some stage in our lives. I saw that for myself when my mum was an unpaid carer for my nan. At the time, we were running our family business, and as I had just had my first child, my mum was part of that sandwich generation that my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster spoke about. Of course, the responsibility for caring so often falls to women, which is why so many fall out of the workforce. I saw the impact that those caring responsibilities had on my mum, on her professional life and on every aspect of her own health and wellbeing.

Staying in work while providing such care can be incredibly challenging. That is why the Bill is so important. I am honoured to chair the all-party parliamentary group on carers, which is proud to support the Bill. We know that, in prioritising someone else’s health and care needs, carers up and down the country are not prioritising their own, which can have a massive impact. People do it not for reimbursement or money, but almost entirely out of love and responsibility, and we must recognise that.

As our population ages and changes, and as the way we work changes, we need to ensure that we change with them, because the number of people juggling work and care will only ever increase. We already lag behind other countries when it comes to workplace rights for carers. Many advanced and further ageing economies—including Japan, Canada, the US, Germany, Ireland and France—have some form of carer’s leave in place.

Leave entitlement for carers was a Conservative manifesto commitment for the 2019 general election, so it is disappointing that it has not been introduced by a Conservative Government, but I am grateful to the hon. Member for North East Fife for doing so. I am pleased, however, that the Conservative Government recognise that the right for unpaid carers take up to a week of leave could make a real difference between somebody staying or leaving the workforce.

It would be a good thing for employers, too, as my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne said. We always talk about the productivity gap, the skills gap and retaining excellent and experienced staff, but people’s caring responsibilities often kick in during the second half of their working lives, when they are at their most experienced and have the most expertise. Businesses face the enormous financial burden not only of losing them and their expertise at that stage, but of the ensuing recruitment costs. I am pleased that the key definitions and parameters that are built into the Bill align with existing provisions for other family leave, making them easier for employers to implement. That is important because we want to minimise the burden on employers and make arrangements easier for employees to understand.

I think this is an excellent piece of legislation. Carers have done so much for our country—they save the NHS and our social care system so much money—so this is the best thing we can do to give something back. That is why I wholeheartedly support the Bill.

It is always a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Paisley. I wholeheartedly congratulate the hon. Member for North East Fife, who has fought a serious campaign on this subject. She speaks from her heart, and from her constituents’ experience, which is the best place from which to try to make a change.

I also congratulate the Government on listening, and on agreeing to this Bill, but I will challenge them a little towards the end of my speech, if that is okay. The Bill is indeed a crucial step forward. It is important partly because it is recognition of what carers do and bring to this country. They do an enormous amount, and the services that they provide save the Government a lot, but as the Bill recognises, that comes at enormous personal cost to the carer. In 2019, over half of respondents to the Multiple Sclerosis Society’s family and friends survey said that they did not have the support they needed, and more than one in three had given up work altogether to care for someone with MS. It is not right and not productive that an average of 600 people a day leave work to care for someone.

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairship, Mr Paisley. I congratulate the hon. Member for North East Fife on a really good Bill. It is a step in the right direction, and I wholeheartedly support it. As hon. Members have said, there are 4.2 million unpaid carers across the UK. They must be valued, heard, and given the support and advice that they need to provide their priceless care.

I have been a carer, and I cannot tell hon. Members how difficult it is. My mother died when I was quite young of acute myeloid leukaemia. There were two and a half weeks between her diagnosis and death. For my father, it was a different matter. He had a nasty cancer, and I ended up having to care for him for the last six months of his life. I had just gone back to work as a solicitor, and I had him living with me. I cannot tell hon. Members how difficult it was; there was guilt about not being there for him every day when he was dying. We were in a financial position to get a live-in carer, who was my guardian angel, and I am very grateful for that.

The Bill is a step in the right direction, but I urge the Minister to think about increasing the number of weeks in question, so that people can be paid for up to four weeks for caring for their loved ones, and for giving palliative care to a loved one who is dying. I urge him to think about that, because I cannot tell him how difficult it is to be a carer in those circumstances.

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye, who brought her personal experience to the debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for North East Fife on the Bill and also reflect the same warmth and consensus that is felt when we all agree on something.

Leave for carers in employment is a hugely important part of the more comprehensive package that we need to provide for those providing care for loved ones. I want to briefly mention a group who are not in employment but whose employment opportunities are affected by their caring responsibilities. I do so as chair of the newly formed all-party parliamentary group on young carers and young adult carers. The 2011 census suggested that there are some 180,000 young carers in the UK, one in eight of whom are under the age of eight. We know that is the tip of the iceberg, as the numbers are estimated to be closer to 700,000 and, as has already been said, many of them do not recognise themselves as carers, not just for the same reasons as adult carers, but because it has been their entire life.

The Carers Trust estimates that one in 12 children and young people take on mid to high-level care for a family member. The average age is 12 and the average annual income for their families is £5,000 lower; 68% are bullied at school, with 26% have been bullied because of their caring role; 45% report having a mental health problem; they achieve nine grades lower at GCSE than their peers; and if they get into further or higher education, they are four times more likely to drop out. All of that clearly affects their life chances, employment opportunities and career prospects, but they receive very little mention in the adult social care White Paper.

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on raising the important issue of the pressure that young carers take on throughout their lives. When I was at the Children’s Society, I led work on a report on the life chances of people who had been young carers and it was shocking that their educational attainment was often non-existent, which often meant their employment possibilities were also non-existent. I hope that he will work with me, and I am more than happy to join his APPG, to ensure that young carers have a voice. They tend to be the silent children who just get on with things.

Thank you for that guidance, Mr Paisley. I welcome the offer to work together and I will certainly take the hon. Lady up on that.

I will draw my remarks to a close by simply asking the Minister to reflect on the need for a strategy for young carers to ensure that we are more effective in identifying them and providing the support that they need.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley. I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for North East Fife on this important Bill and on making an excellent contribution. As I said not too long ago when my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central introduced another important Bill, it is very difficult for private Members’ Bills to get to this stage. Any hon. Member who manages that is worthy of tribute, as I am sure the Committee will agree. I also congratulate other hon. Members who have contributed today, some with their personal experiences, but all making an excellent case. The House is at its best when it comes together, and this is such an important issue.

The Opposition welcome and support the Bill. We welcome the support that it will provide for thousands of unpaid carers across the country. I pay tribute to and thank Carers UK for all its work in this area. As rightly pointed out by the hon. Member for North East Fife and by my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham, 5 million people are working as carers as well as being in full-time employment; 2.5 million people have been forced out of work because of their caring responsibilities; and more than 2 million people have been forced to reduce their hours. That is clearly an unacceptable situation.

For far too long, unpaid carers have had to rely on the goodwill of their employers or have had to take annual leave to fulfil their caring responsibilities. It is therefore right that this wrong is being addressed in the Bill. However, we lament that it has taken so long for such a Bill to appear before Parliament, given that the Government have promised to legislate on the matter for a number of years. As has been mentioned, they set out an intention for such legislation in their 2017 manifesto and again in their 2019 manifesto. It has taken five years —and only by their supporting a Back-Bench MP’s private Member’s Bill—for legislation finally to get to the Floor of the House. That should not be the case; it should have been a Government measure as part of a much broader employment Bill, which the Government have promised on a number of occasions, but it remains in a place of “in due course”, which we never see.

I am disappointed that the Bill seeks to legislate only to create a statutory right to unpaid carer’s leave, not paid carer’s leave, as Labour’s new deal for working people would do and for which we will legislate under the next Labour Government. I absolutely recognise, however, the restraint of the hon. Member for North East Fife in drafting the Bill, knowing that it must have strong support from the Government even to progress to this stage, much less to be introduced and entered on to the statute book. It has therefore been necessary to draft a Bill with a smaller scope to ensure that it is not blocked by Ministers. That is in no way to suggest that this is not a huge step in the right direction.

This is very much an enabling Bill, which will require further regulations to enact the relevant laws to benefit carers. I urge the Minister to give a timescale for and certainty about implementing such regulations. We support the Bill and we hope to see it return to the House on Report and Third Reading as soon as possible.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley.

I thank my several predecessors who have done a lot of work on this, including my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough in her time looking after the legislation. Most of all, I thank the hon. Member for North East Fife for her work on the Bill and for her explanation to the Committee of the various clauses and schedules. It was interesting to listen to her comments—reflected by those of my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport—about the fact that most people providing care, such as her husband, do not even recognise themselves as carers. Reflecting on that, we have all—or people of my age might have—been in situations where we have provided care and support on an informal basis at times. There are armies of people out there doing a wonderful job for their relatives and their dependants, with lots of other benefits for society as a result.

There were some excellent contributions from Members on both sides of the Committee. Lots of people in our constituencies are in need of such support, so it is hugely important that this piece of legislation has been introduced.

Improving carer’s leave through the Bill will mean that unpaid carers who are balancing caring alongside paid employment will have greater flexibility to take time out of work if required. On Second Reading, Members on both sides of the House, some of whom are serving on this Committee, related their personal experiences of caring. I thank them all for sharing their personal stories in heartfelt contributions. The Government recognise the important contribution made by unpaid carers and the considerable challenges they face in balancing work with their caring responsibilities. I am pleased to be here today to reiterate that the Government fully support the Bill.

I thank the Minister for giving way, and welcome my fellow northern MP to his new role on the Front Bench. I welcome the Government’s support for the Bill. The hon. Gentleman heard my remarks about paid carer’s leave, but may I alert him to another cost-neutral Bill—my private Member’s Bill, which will have its Second Reading next Friday and which would provide protection and rights for terminally ill people?

That was a wonderful piece of self-promotion, but I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s comments and will address the points he made.

Numerous groups of people will benefit from the entitlement conferred by this Bill, including older workers, women and those with disabilities or long-term health conditions. Whether they are providing care or in need of care, the Bill represents an important step forward in supporting their needs and giving them a better chance of remaining in work. There is also a strong business case to be made for employers supporting unpaid carers in their workforce, and some employers already provide excellent examples of this. The hon. Member for North East Fife pointed out that there are big benefits for employers in helping employees to enjoy their workplace and strengthening the connection between employer and employee. Many employers already provide carers’ rights without needing legislation requiring them to do so.

As the hon. Lady set out, the Bill is straightforward. The detail of the entitlement is contained in the schedule. The clauses and schedule give the Secretary of State new powers to make regulations entitling an employee to be absent from work in order to provide or arrange care for a dependant with a long-term care need. I will briefly explain the Government’s policy and how the regulations will be used, which was set out in the Government’s response to the consultation on carer’s leave published in September 2021.

Eligible employees will be entitled to one week of unpaid leave per year. This will be available to take flexibly, in single or half-days, to best meet the needs of unpaid carers. Reference is made in the Bill to regulations that in particular provide that an employer cannot require an employee to supply evidence in relation to a request for leave. I agree that employees should not be required to provide evidence to demonstrate their eligibility to take carer’s leave, and this will be reflected in the regulations.

The Bill provides a power to make regulations relating to notices and other procedures. Our position, set out in the Government response to the consultation, is that employees making a request to take carer’s leave should give notice to their employer. Our policy is to align the notice provision with that for annual leave—twice the duration of leave requested, plus one day, subject to a minimum of three days’ notice. The regulations will also allow employers to postpone but not deny a leave request.

I reiterate the Government’s support or the Bill, and again thank the hon. Member for North East Fife for her work in getting it to this stage. I agree that clauses 1 to 3 and parts 1 and 2 of the schedule should stand part of the Bill.

To respond to some of the comments made, the hon. Member for Stockton North talked about making the leave paid. I understand his view, but point out that this is a minimum entitlement, which sends a signal to employers who are currently not demonstrating that degree of compassion to people in need. I think many employees would provide paid leave as a matter of course. One benefit of the leave being unpaid is that it gives more flexibility about how that leave can be taken, including half-days and single days.

I would point out—I think the hon. Member for Rotherham reflected on this—the cost to business. As set out in the explanatory notes, the cost to businesses is £4.7 million in set-up costs and then £40 million per annum to provide the leave. As she said, businesses are facing a pretty hard time right now and we have to be cognisant of the pressures they are under. If businesses do not pay for this, the cost would fall on taxpayers, who are also having a pretty hard time right now, but I think the Bill strikes the right balance between flexibility and affordability.

The hon. Member for Rotherham also pointed out that there are savings for all of us in the legislation. It is good for society, good for the taxpayer, good for businesses, and it is obviously good for people in need of care.

The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bradford East, pointed out that the legislation has taken time to come forward, which is a fair point. We did commit to it in our 2019 manifesto—he was right to say that—but we needed to consult on these matters because other people are affected, including employers. The consultation finished in 2021. It talked about wider employment measures, and we are bringing forward various pieces of legislation. Only last week I sat on the Protection from Redundancy (Pregnancy and Family Leave) Bill Committee with the hon. Member for Barnsley Central. We have the Employment Relations (Flexible Working) Bill, the Neonatal Care (Leave and Pay) Bill, and the Employment (Allocation of Tips) Bill, so there is a raft of legislation we are supporting that will improve terms and conditions for employees.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye spoke touchingly of her personal experience of looking after her father in very difficult circumstances. I think many of us can share her emotions. The hon. Member for Sheffield Central talked about the incredible work that younger carers do and the impacts of that both socially and in education. He made a very fair point because that is another area that we need to look at in greater detail.

The Government continue to support measures to provide unpaid carers in work with much-needed flexibility to manage their caring responsibilities alongside remaining in work. Supporting the Bill is in line with our ongoing commitment to support workers and build a high-skilled, high-productivity, high-wage economy. I look forward to continuing to work with the hon. Member for North East Fife to support the passage of the Bill. I conclude by thanking the hon. Member for North Antrim for his excellent chairing of today’s Committee.