PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE
Draft Local Loans (Increase of Limit) Order 2024 - 13 November 2024 (Commons/General Committees)
Debate Detail
Contributions from Mark Garnier, are highlighted with a yellow border.
The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chair(s) Valerie Vaz
MembersBaldwin, Dame Harriett (West Worcestershire) (Con)
† Blake, Olivia (Sheffield Hallam) (Lab)
† Cooper, Daisy (St Albans) (LD)
† Darlington, Emily (Milton Keynes Central) (Lab)
† Garnier, Mark (Wyre Forest) (Con)
Gibson, Sarah (Chippenham) (LD)
† Hazelgrove, Claire (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Lab)
† Jones, Darren (Chief Secretary to the Treasury)
† Mayhew, Jerome (Broadland and Fakenham) (Con)
† Rand, Mr Connor (Altrincham and Sale West) (Lab)
† Shastri-Hurst, Dr Neil (Solihull West and Shirley) (Con)
† Smith, Nick (Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney) (Lab)
Strathern, Alistair (Hitchin) (Lab)
† Trickett, Jon (Normanton and Hemsworth) (Lab)
† Wakeford, Christian (Bury South) (Lab)
† Williams, David (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
† Witherden, Steve (Montgomeryshire and Glyndŵr) (Lab)
ClerksAnne-Marie Griffiths, Edward Hicks Committee Clerks
† attended the Committee
Fourth Delegated Legislation CommitteeWednesday 13 November 2024
[Valerie Vaz in the Chair]
Chair(s) Valerie Vaz
MembersBaldwin, Dame Harriett (West Worcestershire) (Con)
† Blake, Olivia (Sheffield Hallam) (Lab)
† Cooper, Daisy (St Albans) (LD)
† Darlington, Emily (Milton Keynes Central) (Lab)
† Garnier, Mark (Wyre Forest) (Con)
Gibson, Sarah (Chippenham) (LD)
† Hazelgrove, Claire (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Lab)
† Jones, Darren (Chief Secretary to the Treasury)
† Mayhew, Jerome (Broadland and Fakenham) (Con)
† Rand, Mr Connor (Altrincham and Sale West) (Lab)
† Shastri-Hurst, Dr Neil (Solihull West and Shirley) (Con)
† Smith, Nick (Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney) (Lab)
Strathern, Alistair (Hitchin) (Lab)
† Trickett, Jon (Normanton and Hemsworth) (Lab)
† Wakeford, Christian (Bury South) (Lab)
† Williams, David (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
† Witherden, Steve (Montgomeryshire and Glyndŵr) (Lab)
ClerksAnne-Marie Griffiths, Edward Hicks Committee Clerks
† attended the Committee
Fourth Delegated Legislation CommitteeWednesday 13 November 2024
[Valerie Vaz in the Chair]
16:30:14
Darren Jones
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Local Loans (Increase of Limit) Order 2024.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz, and to bring forward the order for parliamentary approval. The order increases the aggregate limit on local loans through His Majesty’s Treasury’s Public Works Loan Board lending facility from the current level of £115 billion to £135 billion. As specified by the powers within the Public Works Loans Act 1875 and the National Loans Act 1968, those are loans to any local authority for any purpose for which the authority has the power to borrow. In accordance with the powers in the 1968 Act, His Majesty’s Treasury can increase the aggregate limit on outstanding loan debts through statutory instruments up to the maximum limit specified in the Act, which is currently set at £135 billion.
As of March 2024, the Public Works Loan Board’s stock of loans stood at £103.7 billion and is expected to increase further, broadly in line with forecasts for overall local authority borrowing. The Government are therefore bringing forward this statutory instrument to ensure that local authorities can continue to access lending from the Public Works Loan Board to support their capital investment plans and treasury management.
The Government recognise the valuable contribution that local authorities make to the social and economic infrastructure of this country and are committed to supporting local investment through the Public Works Loan Board. His Majesty’s Treasury will continue to work with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government to ensure that local authorities are borrowing in a prudent manner and not for speculative, for-profit investment, which is now prohibited through our Public Works Loan Board lending guidance. I stand ready to answer any questions from the Committee and look forward to receiving its support for this legislation.
That the Committee has considered the draft Local Loans (Increase of Limit) Order 2024.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz, and to bring forward the order for parliamentary approval. The order increases the aggregate limit on local loans through His Majesty’s Treasury’s Public Works Loan Board lending facility from the current level of £115 billion to £135 billion. As specified by the powers within the Public Works Loans Act 1875 and the National Loans Act 1968, those are loans to any local authority for any purpose for which the authority has the power to borrow. In accordance with the powers in the 1968 Act, His Majesty’s Treasury can increase the aggregate limit on outstanding loan debts through statutory instruments up to the maximum limit specified in the Act, which is currently set at £135 billion.
As of March 2024, the Public Works Loan Board’s stock of loans stood at £103.7 billion and is expected to increase further, broadly in line with forecasts for overall local authority borrowing. The Government are therefore bringing forward this statutory instrument to ensure that local authorities can continue to access lending from the Public Works Loan Board to support their capital investment plans and treasury management.
The Government recognise the valuable contribution that local authorities make to the social and economic infrastructure of this country and are committed to supporting local investment through the Public Works Loan Board. His Majesty’s Treasury will continue to work with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government to ensure that local authorities are borrowing in a prudent manner and not for speculative, for-profit investment, which is now prohibited through our Public Works Loan Board lending guidance. I stand ready to answer any questions from the Committee and look forward to receiving its support for this legislation.
16:32:34
Mark Garnier
Wyre Forest
It is exciting—fantastic—for me to start my new job as a shadow Treasury Minister on something so utterly uncontroversial. Obviously, we will support this; there is no question about that. But I would like to make a couple of points.
It is interesting to see that the Public Works Loan Board amount, on a year-by-year basis, has now gone up to pre-pandemic levels, and that we have come back up quite quickly. It is also worth bearing in mind that that was around the time when the new rules were introduced about prudence; it will be interesting to see whether there is any explanation as to why that has happened now. It could be perfectly harmless, but it is important for monitoring.
I have three principal questions. First, the Minister mentioned the rules that were brought in. Can the Government confirm that they will remain committed to those new rules? That is very important. They were there to avoid speculative investment, and we want the money to be properly used to benefit local communities, albeit at a commercial rate of return. It is important to make sure that speculation does not come into this, so can he confirm that?
Will the Government also confirm that they intend to closely monitor how councils are borrowing? That is important because some well-meaning district councils may make some slightly unwise decisions. What metrics will the Government use to make sure that local authorities are borrowing prudently in accordance with the rules, so that we can understand how that is being monitored? Finally, what steps are being taken to manage debts effectively, ensuring that they do not hinder future potential borrowing requirements or place tighter strain on local authorities that may or may not be struggling with tight budgets for one reason or another?
We are keen to support the order; it is a perfectly reasonable thing and it is important for us to support our local authorities. Some are incredibly innovative and a lot of the money is used to support local communities at a commercial rate of return. We see nothing wrong with that, but I will be grateful if the Minister can help me with those questions. It looks as if we may be finished within five minutes.
It is interesting to see that the Public Works Loan Board amount, on a year-by-year basis, has now gone up to pre-pandemic levels, and that we have come back up quite quickly. It is also worth bearing in mind that that was around the time when the new rules were introduced about prudence; it will be interesting to see whether there is any explanation as to why that has happened now. It could be perfectly harmless, but it is important for monitoring.
I have three principal questions. First, the Minister mentioned the rules that were brought in. Can the Government confirm that they will remain committed to those new rules? That is very important. They were there to avoid speculative investment, and we want the money to be properly used to benefit local communities, albeit at a commercial rate of return. It is important to make sure that speculation does not come into this, so can he confirm that?
Will the Government also confirm that they intend to closely monitor how councils are borrowing? That is important because some well-meaning district councils may make some slightly unwise decisions. What metrics will the Government use to make sure that local authorities are borrowing prudently in accordance with the rules, so that we can understand how that is being monitored? Finally, what steps are being taken to manage debts effectively, ensuring that they do not hinder future potential borrowing requirements or place tighter strain on local authorities that may or may not be struggling with tight budgets for one reason or another?
We are keen to support the order; it is a perfectly reasonable thing and it is important for us to support our local authorities. Some are incredibly innovative and a lot of the money is used to support local communities at a commercial rate of return. We see nothing wrong with that, but I will be grateful if the Minister can help me with those questions. It looks as if we may be finished within five minutes.
16:35:52
Daisy Cooper
St Albans
As others have said, this legislation is uncontentious; I am happy to support it. This is a good opportunity to highlight the difference that some of these loans make to people’s lives. In my local area of St Albans, the district council has used Public Works Loan Board borrowing to help fund a range of really ambitious projects in our local area. That has included investment in social housing, such as the King Offa and Hedges sites; decarbonisation and improving the energy efficiency of council homes; investment in vehicles and equipment used for recycling, street cleaning and waste collection, which has helped our district council to achieve one of the highest recycling rates in the country; and investment in a regeneration project in the heart of the city, which is providing social, rented and shared ownership homes along with commercial space to rent.
Simply put, the Liberal Democrat administration at St Albans district council is really ambitious for our area, but it could not have achieved so much, or done work at such a scale to make homes warmer and cost less to heat this winter, without access to this productive borrowing facility. We very much hope that future applications from our and other councils will make just as much difference to people’s lives. We are very pleased to support the measure.
Simply put, the Liberal Democrat administration at St Albans district council is really ambitious for our area, but it could not have achieved so much, or done work at such a scale to make homes warmer and cost less to heat this winter, without access to this productive borrowing facility. We very much hope that future applications from our and other councils will make just as much difference to people’s lives. We are very pleased to support the measure.
16:35:52
Darren Jones
I am grateful to hon. Members for sharing their feedback on this statutory instrument and asking a number of questions. The rate of lending is broadly in line with market expectations; post pandemic, it reflects the fact that activity is now getting back to normal after the pandemic years, when fewer things could be done.
We are committed to the guidance on speculative investment and commercial lending, and that will remain in place. As a Treasury, we have general oversight of the Public Works Loan Board and the guidance and monitoring in respect of which the loans are taken out across the country. It is for local authorities, of course, in their own institutional capacity—through their own committees and audit functions—to look at the reasons for borrowing locally and see that that capital is being used well on the ground, but the Treasury has powers to intervene on particular loans and councils if concerns are raised.
Housing is, of course, a really important part of lending from the Public Works Loan Board, which is why we have extended the housing revenue account discount rate on lending for a further year, into financial year 2025-26.
Question put and agreed to.
4.37 pm
Committee rose.
We are committed to the guidance on speculative investment and commercial lending, and that will remain in place. As a Treasury, we have general oversight of the Public Works Loan Board and the guidance and monitoring in respect of which the loans are taken out across the country. It is for local authorities, of course, in their own institutional capacity—through their own committees and audit functions—to look at the reasons for borrowing locally and see that that capital is being used well on the ground, but the Treasury has powers to intervene on particular loans and councils if concerns are raised.
Housing is, of course, a really important part of lending from the Public Works Loan Board, which is why we have extended the housing revenue account discount rate on lending for a further year, into financial year 2025-26.
Question put and agreed to.
4.37 pm
Committee rose.
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