PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE
Draft West Midlands Combined Authority (Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024 - 26 February 2024 (Commons/General Committees)

On a point of order, Sir Graham. Could you give the Committee your guidance on the validity and timing of this measure? My understanding is that the west midlands police and crime commissioner has applied for a judicial review, which will not be determined until 7 March. Is it therefore appropriate that we consider this matter in advance of that judicial review?

Thank you, Sir Graham, for allowing a Member of Parliament from the west midlands to speak. Further to the point of order made by my hon. Friend the Member for Easington, could I ask the Minister what legal advice has been taken on whether the Government are acting ultra vires, if the court decides that the consultation process the Government have belatedly undertaken has not been followed correctly?

The issue of whether the Government are acting lawfully is a very serious one. My question was whether the Government had taken legal advice on that point, given that judicial review proceedings are pending and the court will hear the whole case on 7 March. The Minister talks about consultation, but could he say whether the people of the west midlands actually wanted this process and what the results of the consultation were?

On the quality of the responses, the Minister will know, as I do as a west midlands MP, that one quite concerning thing was the number of copy-and-paste responses that seem to have come out of the consultation—as if someone was trying to tee it one way. Will my right hon. Friend reiterate the point he made about the quality of the responses to the consultation and ensuring that they are dealt with in an accurate way?

On that point, will my right hon. Friend give way?

On a point of order, Sir Graham. I understand that the hon. Member for Lichfield has a connection to the Mayor, and I wish that he could state what that is. Should he or should he not be taking part in the proceedings?

Further to that point of order, Sir Graham. I am really grateful to the right hon. Lady for pointing that out. Legally, I am under no obligation, as I understand it—perhaps you can clarify this, Sir Graham —to declare an interest, because there is no pecuniary interest whatever. I am more than happy to say that Andy Street is a friend of mine, and I am sure he is a friend of many others. Indeed, I like to think I am a special friend of Andy Street’s, and I simply state that for the record.

And now will my right hon. Friend the Minister give way?

On the number of cut-and-paste responses, it might be helpful to point out that, of the responses from the few people who actually took part in the consultation, over 900 were duplicates, and all of them said they did not want Andy Street. It was interesting that there seemed to be an assumption—I cannot think why—that Andy Street would be the Mayor after the election.

Will the Minister give way on the consultation, because it is important?

The Minister really is, but this is important, and it is our job to question him—I thought that was what we were here for. The consultation took place over Christmas. Those are never good consultations, because people have other things to do. The Minister says there were just 7,000 responses, but I think that is quite a lot. Could he clarify what he means by “cut and paste”? If the question is, “Do you want this to happen?”, the answer is going to be only either yes or no. By “cut and paste” does he mean just a yes or a no? Lastly, there was a referendum on this very proposition in 2021 and the people of the west midlands decided against it.

I understand that the last time the consultation was done, they were strongly supportive of the Mayor. They thought it was a waste of money, actually.

Are you the Minister? Are you answering the questions?

No, I am intervening. The right hon. Lady keeps intervening, so I am sure she is not saying that I should not intervene, with the Minister’s permission. Am I not correct that, in fact, people were overwhelmingly supportive? Labour Mayor Sadiq Khan, Labour Mayor Andy Burnham and Labour Mayor Tracy Brabin all have control over the police, too. It saves money. It is not meant to be a job-creation scheme.

In 2021.

Will the Minister give way?

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, but I will think of my own questions, if that is okay. I would like to ask about consistency. He is making quite a robust argument about efficiency and lack of duplication. Was it not the Conservatives who introduced police and crime commissioners in the first place? Why is it that in my part of the country there is no attempt to consolidate the elected Mayors and the police and crime commissioners? They are quite separate positions, and I am not aware of any move locally or by the Government to merge them.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I start by confirming that we do not intend to divide the Committee on this statutory instrument, but that is because we agree with the principle and not the way the Government in which have carried out the process, and I will go into some detail on that. Today’s debate has not covered the Government in glory, and there remain some significant questions for them to answer.

The Minister was very robust in his response, but I do not think that that energy was particularly matched with substance when he was answering Members’ questions, and he might reflect on that when he responds, because there are legitimate concerns. I have been to many of these Committees, and perhaps those on the Home Office Front Bench are a bit more energetic than those on the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Front Bench, but this has been one of the most engaged Committees I have been to, because of the process and the way it has been handled, and I will go into some details on that.

Labour is consistent in its support for directly elected Mayors for our combined authorities, and it has long supported aligning the powers where they are coterminous with those of the police and crime commissioner. We supported it for the Mayors of Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire, and although the model is different in London, we see similar powers there. We have supported the same for York and North Yorkshire, and we supported the proposal for South Yorkshire too. So there has been consistent support for bringing those powers together over a number of SIs.

On the basis of today’s exchanges, I hope that lessons are learned from the consultation and public engagement in the west midlands and that those are applied to the South Yorkshire consultation before that SI comes forward. It is important that we bring the public with us. Let us not fool ourselves: not every member of the public talks about these issues over their cornflakes, but those who are interested will want to know that, where they have expressed concerns, those have been taken on board. I heard the exchange earlier about “copy-and-paste responses”. We should not discount those. If people have taken the time to submit a view, it cannot be discounted. I heard the Minister—perhaps I misheard him—saying, “Well, if you discount all the negative views, what was left was quite positive.” Well, of course, that would be the case in every consultation, but I am not sure that it is quite in the spirit of—

I can do, but we might be here for some time.

What is the difference?

I appreciate that clarification, but I think we all got the gist of where the mood was on that. I do think that this is a problem with how Governments, not just in Westminster but more generally, do politics in the UK. We start off with a predetermined view, or even a predetermined outcome, we go out to consultation, which is a paper exercise, and we do not adequately change our position when new evidence comes to the light. Politics needs to learn that listening and acting are not always the same as an embarrassing U-turn. I say that as a point of principle rather than about anything in particular, but I thought it was worth raising.

It is pretty clear that the Government have not brought on board widespread support on this issue in the way we have on other areas, and there are a number of questions that fall from that. Devolution is not just about doing things to people or imposing the will of central Government, based on what they already believed to be the outcome; it is about the Government working with local people to co-produce the outcome that is right for their area. So my questions for the Minister are as follows. What plans do the Government have to consult local authorities further, or do they conclude that the matter is now done and dusted? Before pressing ahead, will the Minister commit to a further formal consultation that commands the confidence of the west midlands region?

As the police and crime commissioner for the west midlands has pointed out, the Government have made a complete mess of the whole process, and I understand that an application for a judicial review has been submitted that will be considered next week. I know that that is a separate process, and I do not intend to go into the legalities, but the situation as it stands is remarkable, and not one I have faced in previous SIs on devolution matters.

Despite failing to secure the mandates needed in ’19 and ’21, the Conservatives decided to legislate to remove the requirement for democratic approval in 2023. On 6 December 2023, the Home Secretary approved the transfer without the lawfully required public consultation. The Home Secretary subsequently and retrospectively decided to launch a public consultation, which went against the outcome that the Government wanted, yet they decided to press ahead anyway. We are nine weeks before the mayoral and PCC elections and the administrators, the candidates and the parties still have no idea what is going to take place. They just feel very much as though it has been rushed to try to meet the deadline of the election for political purposes, rather than it genuinely being about due process and public engagement in a meaningful way. What legal advice have the Minister or his colleagues in the Home Office sought regarding the approach taken by the Government? Will they publish the legal advice in full? This whole discussion feels quite symbolic of the Government’s limited approach in general, tinkering with the structures and shifting significant powers between existing bodies, rather than away from Westminster or Whitehall down to communities at a closer level. It stands as a matter of fact that devolution under this Government is fragmented, piecemeal and has not gone far or fast enough. The powers and resources do not touch the sides of what is required for communities to have control over their own areas and futures.

Labour would push power out of Westminster with a take back control Act that gives communities a direct say in their future. It would start by giving all Mayors the powers and flexibility to turbocharge growth in their areas, including over planning and housing, transport, net zero and adult education and skills.

I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend’s flow, but will he give an opinion? There is a plethora of different arrangements; apart from my own region, I was just looking at Liverpool. There is Greater Manchester and Merseyside, which has a separate police and crime commissioner, as well as Steve Rotheram, the elected Mayor. There are issues with the consultation, and the members of the combined authority who were asked did not support merging the two. In the circumstances, would it not be sensible for the Committee to defer making a decision until after the judicial review has been considered on or after 7 January? Does my hon. Friend support that request for a deferral?

There are two separate points there. The first is on whether there ought to be uniformity or it should be accepted that there are different powers in different places. The Labour Front-Bench position is that where boundaries are coterminous in a place with a police and crime commissioner and a directly elected Mayor of a combined authority, both powers should be brought together with local support and consent. Where they are not coterminous, it would not be right for a Mayor in one area to take on political powers that transcend the boundaries of the combined authority in that respect. That is certainly the issue in Merseyside.

The other, separate issue, which I touched on, is a fair one: given the judicial review, should the Government press ahead or not? Certainly, the advice that we have taken is that they are two linked but separate processes. Parliament and the Government will carry on with their process, and the courts will make a judgment on the JR and its merits. It will or will not have an implication, but that is no reason not to progress at this point given the advice we have had.

I certainly take the power of the objection and the concern about the way in which things have been done, because it is a unique situation in which there are such legitimate concerns. There is a danger that the concerns raised are dismissed because the Government have the votes to get the change through regardless, which would be a mistake. If we do not bring people with us and convince them that it is the right thing for their area and can make a positive difference, and it is done despite, not with, the will of local people, that is not the road to empower people to make a change for their area.

I am listening to the argument presented by the hon. Gentleman. He says there is a will against it locally and so on and so forth; how can he say that? We have the objection of some politicos who do not like the idea that perhaps they may lose their job. We have 7,000 people out of 3 million—I will repeat that: 7,000 people out of 3 million—who responded. That is hardly a majority at all saying that they do not agree with it. The majority of people just want us to get on with the job.

With respect, as I touched on previously, although these are not the types of issues that dominate household conversations and inspire people—they have other things to get on with—I suggest that the hon. Gentleman looks at the responses to the consultation on the creation of the West Midlands Mayor in the first place, to which I say there would have been a comparable number. That is not a reason to do it or not to do it; my point is that when people make a representation, it should be taken in good faith. Whether they are for or against, if people make substantively fair points, they should be taken on board. The point about due process, local engagement and bringing people with us on that journey has been made, and it is a fair one. Without pre-empting or getting ahead of the judicial review, there is a reason why it was brought about: because there are concerns about that process.

Labour would offer all places the right power in the right places to negotiate with Government for powers that have been devolved elsewhere. We of course recognise that local government—the building blocks on which devolution is built—is in a fragile state, and its funding settlement has given rise to a number of concerns on that front, but we believe that devolution is the way forward and that it really does answer the question of how people can feel far more power and agency in the places where they live and that they care about.

I rise to support the legislation because I firmly believe that it is consistent with the Government’s policy. The merger will improve standards and efficiency, and I believe it will also help to cut crime in the west midlands. Crucially, it will enable the Mayor—whoever that is after the May elections—to set the West Midlands police budget, to appoint chief constables and to issue a policing plan.

In constituencies like mine, Aldridge-Brownhills, things like this really do matter to our residents. The elected Mayor currently has devolved powers in areas such as transport, regeneration, housing and skills, which are all very much about people, place and communities, so it absolutely makes sense to combine the role with that of the PCC. At the end of the day, if it is good enough for London, Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire, why is it not good enough for the west midlands? Particularly given the size of the west midlands region, it just no longer works to have a separate PCC.

We often talk in this place about the really complex issues that need to be tackled, such as knife crime and violent crime, which need a much more joined-up approach. That is a further reason why combining the two roles would enable much more joined-up thinking at a regional level. I have to say that we currently have a PCC who is acting with very little regard to communities, certainly in areas such as mine, on the periphery of the west midlands—I sometimes wonder whether he actually knows where Aldridge-Brownhills is, but never mind—as demonstrated by his determination to push ahead with the closure of the Aldridge police station, putting politics before people and communities. I believe that combining the role of the Mayor and the PCC will result in a much more holistic, community-focused approach.

As a matter of principle, the police and crime commissioner is not here to defend himself against or rebut the argument that is being put forward against him. We can of course make the point on policy, and have a difference where differences exist, but let us not make it too personal by criticising an individual—from any party—who is not here to defend themselves.

With all due respect, I think that others in the room have made things personal, perhaps without mentioning a name. I am standing here to defend my constituency and to make sure that I get the best for Aldridge-Brownhills.

Fundamentally, I come back to my point that combining both roles under the leadership of one person—we do not know who that will be after the May elections, and I am not being presumptuous at all—will enable a greater, more joined-up approach that will benefit communities and our constituents, with a much greater focus on them. We need this to happen and to get on with it. Let us get this done. We have the opportunity to see that happen and to deliver for our constituents.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate. I start by commending some of the comments and the tone of the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton. He took a measured approach to this issue. I appreciate that we are not discussing his geographic area, but he can see how this merger can work. Greater Manchester has gone on a journey, and we have seen consistency there. I appreciate the fact that Greater Manchester has had its issues—we know that and it has been excepted—but I think the hon. Gentleman would agree that, as he touched on to a degree, if we are to see the real genesis of some of these areas, devolution requires more responsibility to come down. We can go back and forth over what that looks like, but granting powers such as those in the legislation before us is a really important part of that.

I must say that the opposition to this change from colleagues in the west midlands just sounds like people trying to save a comrade. That is the brutal part of it. I ask colleagues from the west midlands whether they voted for Comrade Foster in the mayoral candidacy selection last year—the contest in which he came third. That in itself is an indictment of where we are. I have seen exactly what the opposition to the change comes down to: it feels to me, and to many of us across the west midlands, that it is to try and save a mate, and nothing more.

We talk about consistency and the evolution of our areas. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills and my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield touched on, the west midlands is a region of 3 million people. It is the second largest urban conurbation in England and Wales—probably in the United Kingdom—and rightfully wants to evolve to the next level of what devolution looks like, so the opposition seems completely out of sorts. The contrast is also quite stark because, as I say, the shadow Minister gave a perfectly reasonable speech and made some really salient points. From his experience in local government, he knows the importance of managing these processes. Some of the opposition I have seen locally just seems like trying to keep the establishment going.

To touch on the points my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills made, I too have been a victim of this police station closure programme. We stopped one closure—we prevented Tipton police station from closing—but had this structure been in place, with a high-profile Mayor who was actually able to have the community cut-through my right hon. Friend the Minister alluded to, we could perhaps have sorted this situation out sooner. However, what I would say, particularly to Labour politicians locally in Sandwell, is this: shame on you for trying to take any sort of credit for saving that police station. It was not politicians who saved that; it was the community campaign that saved that. Shame on you, because you were not there when your comrade in the PCC’s office was absolutely adamant that that station had to go.

This is what we are on about: lining up responsibilities to enable us to have a more streamlined approach, to stop ridiculous situations such as the one I described and to take a more circumspect view, taking into account not just operational policing matters, which are of course important, but the broader community links that matter within our region. I think that that is what this comes down to.

I and, I think, many in the west midlands want to see our region move on. In the past 10 years, we have seen the way in which our region has evolved and developed, and it continues to do so. Why should we miss out, as my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield said, on the opportunities that London and Greater Manchester have had? Do not get me wrong; with Greater Manchester as an example, it is not this land of milk and honey, and things do not always go right along the way. But having that accountability—the ability to hold that person to account—but in a broader, community, contextualised way, is absolutely the key pillar behind this change.

We can go back and forth on the responses around this measure; my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield made a valuable point about the engagement on this. The hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton also touched on that when he said that this is not what people talk about over their cornflakes in the morning. However, on the democratic engagement point, I think it is incumbent on all of us in this room to ensure that there is democratic engagement on these issues.

To close, I might put one challenge to the Minister. We know that funds are stretched at the moment, and I will not go too much into the judicial review, but I would be keen to understand what advice he has taken about recovering the costs personally from the PCC. The PCC has used public money for this judicial review, when it could have been given to police officers on the beat or used to keep police stations such as that in Wednesbury in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills open. I would be very grateful for that information. I appreciate that some of the advice may be privileged but, from within the realms of what the Minister can share, what advice has he taken on recovering some of those costs? It is an outrage to my constituents that they have had to foot the bill for, as far as I am concerned, saving a mate.

I welcome this measure, as I am sure Members on both sides of the House do. It has opened a broad debate, and I am particularly interested in what the shadow Minister said, because I think this opens up a lot of rabbit holes that we could go down today, although we are not going to. Ultimately, I support this measure. It is the right move for the west midlands—a west midlands that is moving forward in the right direction—and it is putting us on a par with everyone else.

Will the Minister give way?

It is important.