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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE
Topical Questions - 8 January 2024 (Commons/Commons Chamber)

Debate Detail

Contributions from James Cartlidge, are highlighted with a yellow border.
Lab
Ashley Dalton
West Lancashire
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
Grant Shapps
The Secretary of State for Defence
As we enter 2024, I pay tribute to and thank our armed forces for all their extraordinary work during 2023. I know that the whole House will join me in that. Sadly, 2024 is likely to be just as busy. We have already discussed the intolerable situation of the Houthis closing international waterways. We call for the Iranian-backed Houthis to immediately cease those attacks. The Houthis will bear responsibility for the consequences should they ignore those warnings.
  15:19:40
Ashley Dalton
Happy new year to you and the whole House, Mr Speaker. Two west Lancashire men, Robert Hanson and Arthur Pim, served in the RAF’s photographic reconnaissance unit during world war two, taking millions of photos over enemy lines. Their efforts helped the allies to defeat the Nazis. There remains no national monument to the PRU. I am backing one; are the Government?
Grant Shapps
I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for raising the subject, and I will certainly be happy to arrange for her to meet with a Minister to discuss it further.
Con
  15:20:21
Anna Firth
Southend West
T2. Innocent Ukrainians have just seen in a second new year under some of the heaviest aerial bombardments since Russia’s illegal war began. Will my right hon. Friend please update the House on what steps he is taking to ensure Ukraine has modern aerial defence systems to protect innocent Ukrainians from these murderous, appalling airstrikes?
  15:20:44
Grant Shapps
My hon. Friend is absolutely right about this ongoing illegal war run by Putin. We immediately responded to the attacks over the new year by bringing forward the gifting of 200 further air defence missiles. I have mentioned already the international fund for Ukraine, which is helping to provide, among other things, air defence.
Mr Speaker
I call the shadow Minister.
Lab/Co-op
  15:15:04
Luke Pollard
Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport
The Minister for Defence Procurement has today confirmed that HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark, based in Devonport, which I am proud to represent, are still at risk of being mothballed. He said that no final decisions have been made, so the risk to these ships is real. When will a decision be made? Will the ships be cut, or will they be tied up alongside, flying the white ensign but never really putting to sea?
Grant Shapps
Of course anyone who is serious about the defence budget has to make the decision about whether to put into maintenance ships that have already served twice their intended lives—18 years and more, times two—and that would come out of that maintenance after brand-new ships were at sea. There is obviously a decision for the Royal Navy to make on that, but I remind the House that there are eight Type 26s and five Type 31s under construction or under contract.
Con
  15:22:05
Mrs Pauline Latham
Mid Derbyshire
T5. We face a complex range of security threats and challenges in our rapidly changing world. Cyber-attacks are increasingly common and nations across the world are preparing to become combat ready for space warfare. What assessment has the Minister’s Department made of supporting defence jobs to assist the UK’s efforts against cyber and space warfare?
  15:22:39
James Cartlidge
The Minister for Defence Procurement
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who asks a second excellent question, given the growing importance of the cyber and space domains. On cyber, I can confirm that the 2022 national cyber strategy highlights the Government’s commitment to growing the UK cyber-ecosystem and that new cyber-career structures are being developed across Defence, with new ways of training, upskilling and rewarding our people. On space, we have created a space academy for Government, industry and academia and are supporting cross-Government work to develop a space workforce action plan for 2024.
SNP
  15:22:59
Martin Docherty-Hughes
West Dunbartonshire
Does the Minister recognise any semblance of truth in this statement by Dominic Cummings,

“the scandal of nuclear weapons infrastructure which is a dangerous disaster and a budget nightmare of hard-to-believe and highly classified proportions”,

regarding the Coulport naval facility and the nuclear deterrent black hole?
  15:22:57
James Cartlidge
As with our previous exchange, while I respect the hon. Gentleman’s position, we do not comment on speculation. What I can say is that nuclear infrastructure is incredibly important to the future of our deterrent. His Majesty’s naval base Clyde has developed an established management plan with a 40-year horizon that provides a strategic vision for the future that is clear and simple and that endures, and we have a £1.4 billion programme for Faslane and Coulport nuclear facilities and nuclear infrastructure.
Con
Mark Menzies
Fylde
T8. Last month’s treaty with Japan and Italy brought the global air combat programme’s Team Tempest a step closer to reality. It followed news that BAE Systems is to hire 2,700 graduates and apprentices this year, including more than 500 Lancashire-based roles across the air division. What estimate does my hon. Friend make of the defence sector’s impact on the economy, job prospects and opportunities for young people in places like Fylde—and, indeed, Chorley?
Mr Speaker
That is a very good question.
  15:23:56
James Cartlidge
It is brilliant news, and we are delighted to have signed the treaty with Japan and Italy last month. My hon. Friend asks about the impact; it is fair to say that it will have a particular impact on his constituency, which houses the Warton site, where we have our factory of the future for the global combat air programme. I can confirm that a 2021 report by PwC estimated that the programme would contribute £26 billion to the UK economy between 2021 and 2050 and support on average 21,000 jobs per year, many of which will be in Lancashire, Mr Speaker, and particularly in my hon. Friend’s constituency.
Lab
Mr Kevan Jones
North Durham
T3. I do not know whether the Minister has seen the article by the Daily Mail defence editor, Mark Nicol, about the lack of transparency on pinch points in the armed forces personnel workforce. Figures on that used to be produced regularly. When was the decision taken to no longer produce them, and will the Minister commit today to producing them in the interest of transparency?
Dr Andrew Murrison
The Minister for Defence People and Families
I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman a straight answer to that because I cannot remember when the figures were withdrawn, but I can certainly look into it and write to him. On pinch points, he will be aware that, through Haythornthwaite-type processes, we are incentivising people to join parts of defence that are underpopulated at the moment, such as chefs and—
  15:25:31
Mr Speaker
Order. I call Sir Michael Fabricant.
Con
  15:25:59
Michael Fabricant
Lichfield
My hon. Friend has already acknowledged the importance of women in the armed forces. Will he join me in expressing belated thanks to retired Air Marshal Sir Baz North, who, in a difficult constituency case, helped me to get someone into the Royal Air Force, and will he join me in praising that person, Lowri Simner, who has just been promoted to squadron leader?
Dr Murrison
Absolutely. I join my hon. Friend in congratulating them both.
LD
  15:26:33
Helen Morgan
North Shropshire
T4. The service family accommodation at Clive barracks in my constituency is concerning. A family who have severe health problems are living in a mouldy house. The Defence Infrastructure Organisation does not want to spend the money on fixing those problems; it wants to move them into a different house for the second time in two years. What are the Minister’s commitments on upgrading and maintaining the housing stock, particularly on sites that are earmarked for closure, such as Clive barracks?
  15:26:58
James Cartlidge
The hon. Lady is welcome to write to me about that specific case. I pay tribute to her because she consistently raises such accommodation issues—we had an exchange about them in Westminster Hall. She mentions DIO money and, as I said in that exchange, the key is investment. We have doubled the budget for maintenance and upgrades this year as part of the extra £400 million that we are putting in. That is why we can address the damp and mould in so many properties. I am happy to look at the specifics of the case she mentions.
Con
  15:27:17
Sarah Atherton
Wrexham
As the media report the retirement of HMS Bulwark and HMS Albion, there are obvious questions about Britain’s future amphibious capability, which was used so admirably during the Falklands war, along with the unrivalled skills of our specialist troops. Does the Minister agree that our Royal Marine commandos are an asset that we cannot afford to lose?
  15:27:24
Grant Shapps
I absolutely agree. I just want to correct a point that I made earlier: I was talking about frigates, but I think the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) was talking about the landing platform docks, on which no decision has been made.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Sarah Atherton) mentions, the Royal Marines are absolutely essential. I have asked the First Sea Lord to provide a plan for how their excellent work will be taken forward.
SNP
Patricia Gibson
North Ayrshire and Arran
T6. The long-running industrial dispute at Defence Equipment and Support in Beith in my constituency started in July last year and looks set to continue as workers fight for free and equal treatment. Given the important work that is undertaken at that facility—not least to ensure that vital equipment is dispatched to Ukraine—will the Secretary of State personally intervene to break the stalemate, end the dispute once and for all, and provide equality for all workers at the Beith site?
  15:28:44
James Cartlidge
I know how important this issue is to the hon. Lady. Differing rates are paid for workers with different skills and qualifications, which is normal practice in both the public and private sectors. I understand that a generous pay offer remains on the table. It would significantly improve the pay of the workers in dispute beyond the recent 2023 pay award, which has already significantly uplifted base pay for those specific workers, alongside over £4,000 in bonuses. It is disappointing that GMB members have voted to continue industrial action, but DE&S officials continue to be open to talks with the GMB on a constructive basis.
Con
James Sunderland
Bracknell
The pursuit of exquisite exclusivity in defence procurement is to be lauded, but can the Minister confirm that his Department is also focused on procuring the logistic platforms that we need to sustain it? Is it perhaps time for a defence operational capability audit to look into that key capability gap?
  15:29:22
James Cartlidge
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point—of course, he speaks with great experience. As we have been stressing, the whole point of acquisition reform is, instead of seeking exquisite platforms, to go for 80% to get them into service faster and then to have spiral development. We think that that is the future of procurement.
Lab
Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck 
South Shields
T9. Our nuclear veterans waited 70 years for recognition and are waiting even longer for justice. In a debate last year, the Minister promised “in the days ahead” to examine 150 documents relating to blood and urine tests held by the Atomic Weapons Establishment. What did his examination find?
Dr Murrison
That is certainly my intention—I have not seen them yet but I intend to. The hon. Lady will have seen the list of 150; I think she will be disappointed about the content of those documents when she sees them, because very few of them will give us any information that will take us any further forward. But I committed to reading them and will certainly do so in the very near future.
Con
Steve Brine
Winchester
Ministers know that Sir John Moore barracks in my constituency is due for disposal in 2026 as part of the future soldier programme, which will bring phase 1 capability to the Pirbright site and put 900 houses in its place. Will a Minister meet me to ensure that the current ministerial team is right behind the move and, if it is, that we have an intelligent masterplan that does not just help Winchester City Council to meet its housing targets?
James Cartlidge
I am more than happy to meet my hon. Friend.
SNP
Owen Thompson
Midlothian
The 2023 armed forces satisfaction survey confirmed that half of personnel do not believe that their family benefit from being a service family. The impact of service life on family and personal life remains a top factor behind the intention to leave, so what does the Secretary of State propose to do to listen to forces families and implement policies to make a difference?
Grant Shapps
It is very important that our service personnel feel that they are not only honoured when they go to war but comfortable at home. One of the big things I am doing is pressing forward with the review of armed service accommodation, including by providing £400 million to improve that accommodation, which will make the lives of service personnel better at home.
Con
Sir Julian Lewis
New Forest East
A

“short-sighted, militarily illiterate manoeuvre totally at odds with strategic reality”

was how the Defence Committee described, in February 2018, the proposal to retire HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark ahead of their anticipated lifetime dates of 2033 and 2034. May I advise and warn the Secretary of State not to be blindsided by the people who are raising this matter again after a change of Secretary of State for Defence?
Grant Shapps
I point out that, of course, they will be five years older, but I again stress to the House that no decision has been made on the landing platform dock vessels.
Lab
Dan Jarvis
Barnsley Central
Let me take the Minister back to the Triples. There has been some debate about the extent to which the Triples were paid directly by UK forces. I know that that was the case. Does the Minister accept that and, if he does, does he not think they should be looked at under category 2 rather than category 4 of the Afghan relocations and assistance policy scheme?
James Heappey
The Minister for Armed Forces
There is a difference of opinion between the advice I receive from officials and the position the hon. Gentleman has set out. It would be good to bring him in to meet those officials, have that discussion and reach some truth.
Lab
Valerie Vaz
Walsall South
Will the Ukraine action plan 2023 ever be published? Better still, will there be a Ukraine action plan 2024? And when will that be published?
Grant Shapps
We work hand in glove with the Ukrainian Government to make sure that the action plan is one that can win the war. We have seen huge progress, in particular, in Crimea and the Black sea, and we look forward, throughout the House, to further progress in ’24 for our brave Ukrainian friends.
Lab
Mike Amesbury
Weaver Vale
Given that homelessness among veterans has gone up by 14% and that it is a cross-departmental issue, what more are Ministers doing to ensure that all our veterans are housed?
Dr Murrison
As I said in answer to a previous question, homelessness remains a Government priority, whether or not someone is a veteran. In general, the experience of our veterans, when they return to civilian life, is a positive one and we should celebrate that.
SNP
Dave Doogan
Angus
Clyde-built HMS Argyll is the oldest escort in the fleet. She is currently in refit in Devonport and has been since August ’22. Will the Minister for Defence Procurement advise when she will be recommissioned, re-crewed and back in service?
James Cartlidge
I will have to write to the hon. Gentleman on that one.

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