PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE
Local Government Reorganisation - 15 January 2025 (Commons/Commons Chamber)

(Urgent Question): To ask the Minister to make a statement on plans for local government reorganisation.

The English devolution White Paper sets out how this Government plan to deliver on our manifesto pledge to transfer power out of Westminster through devolution and to fix the foundations of local government. This Government’s long-term vision is for simpler structures, making it clearer for residents who they should look to on local issues, with more strategic decisions to unlock growth and to deliver better services for local communities.

On 16 December 2024, I wrote to all councils in the remaining two-tier areas and neighbouring small unitaries to set out plans for a joint programme of devolution coupled with local government reorganisation. We acknowledge that for some areas the timing of elections affects their planning for devolution, particularly alongside reorganisation. To help to manage these demands, we will consider requests to postpone local elections, as has been the case in previous rounds. Where local elections are postponed, we will work with local areas to move elections to a new shadow unitary council as soon as possible. This is a very high bar, and rightly so.

The deadline for such requests was Friday 10 January. Today, my Department has published a list of all county and unitary councils who have made requests, including those who want to delay elections from 2025 to 2026. For the avoidance of doubt, this is the list of requests; it is not the final list that will be approved. We will consider these requests carefully and postpone elections only where there is a clear commitment to delivering both reorganisation and devolution to the ambitious timetable set out. While not all areas listed will go forward to be part of the devolution priority programme, we are grateful for the local leadership shown in submitting these requests, and a decision will be made in due course as soon as possible.

We welcome the large number of areas that have come forward seeking to join the devolution priority programme, reflecting our own ambition for greater coverage across England. This Labour Government were elected on a manifesto to push power out of Westminster and to relight the fires of our regions, and I am delighted that local leaders across England are sharing that ambition.

Although it was not a manifesto commitment, the Government published their agenda for reorganising council structures in England before Christmas, and we support our local government colleagues who are clearly required to respond to that call from Government. With local elections scheduled to take place in May this year and councils already incurring significant costs arranging polling stations and electoral canvassing, and preparing to receive nominations and issue postal ballots, it is not surprising that many councils have acceded to the Government’s expectation of a delay in these polls. After all, why incur millions in costs to local council tax payers for electing people to councils that are to be abolished shortly afterwards?

However, there remains significant uncertainty about where and if those elections will be delayed. With deadlines looming for key points in the organisation of those elections, that uncertainty risks some wasted costs for council tax payers, so we on the Conservative Benches have a series of questions. We know that many of those councils are Conservative-run, and with Conservative councils charging on average £80 less per household than Labour ones and £21 less on average than Lib Dem ones, voters will want to understand the impact of the Government’s reorganisation on their council tax and on their back pocket.

May I ask the Minister, first, what assessment has he made of the Boundary Commission’s capacity to undertake the necessary reviews to ensure equal distribution of electors across the new local authorities? Can he give an indication to the House of when he will make decisions, so that local authorities will know whether they are preparing to organise elections and are willing to incur those costs or not? We know that a number of other announcements are in train, particularly the indication from the Deputy Prime Minister that areas currently setting a low level of council tax will be punished through revisions to the funding formula, so when can local authorities expect to know what impact such revisions to the funding formula will have? I look forward to informative answers from the Minister.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for those questions, and I am genuinely grateful for the spirit of consensus around the broader issue. I accept that there may be differences of opinion on pace, but we do not shy away from our ambition to see devolution experienced by the whole of England. I give a degree of credit to the previous Government for building out devolution in the north of England and the midlands, but surely we have to demonstrate that this project is not reserved for the north of England and the midlands. This is a project for the whole of England, and we are on with that.

Our determination to ensure that we deal with these structural changes early in the Parliament is clear, but that is shared by local government. It is important to say that although of course we will set the timetable and provide support on both the devolution priority programme and local reorganisation, it is for local areas to self-organise and to agree to be part of the programme. We are not mandating this; we are not forcing it. All the requests that we have had since Friday have been from areas who share our ambition.

The hon. Gentleman will know that it is sensible to take the approach that, if reorganisation is a genuine proposal—and the bar has to be high for that test—it is nonsense to have elections to bodies that simply will not exist. It is far better that we move at pace and create the new unitary councils and then hold elections at the earliest opportunity.

I am not going to get into the subject of council tax, partly because it is outside the scope of the hon. Gentleman’s urgent question. Also, he was slightly mischievous in the way that he framed his remarks. On the point about capacity, however, it might be helpful if I lay out what the process will be. Local areas will make the request. We will issue statutory invitations at the end of the month, and areas will need to self-organise. It is not for the Boundary Commission or the Government to lay down which plans come forward. It is for local areas to submit proposals to us, and at that point the Government will decide on the right proposals among what could be a number of options that come forward from local areas. Again, it will be for local areas to self-organise and make those proposals to us.

I call the Chair of the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee.

I thank the shadow Minister for securing this important question; he has highlighted some key issues.

Sadly, we know that our councils are at breaking point. The Select Committee’s first major inquiry is to look at local government finances, and we look forward to engaging with the Minister on it. It was reported that local authorities in England were facing £77.5 billion-worth of debt by the end of last year. Much of that is debt to central Government or from borrowing. Sadly, because of that, vital frontline services such as housing and social care are at breaking point. Residents cannot afford to be caught up in buck-passing or discussions about accountability if this reorganisation goes through, so can the Minister assure the House that residents will still have the same level of power and scrutiny over vital services during the reorganisations?

I thank the Chair of the Select Committee for those questions. What I hear from residents and even from councillors in two-tier areas is that, more often than not, local residents have no idea which council to go to in order to get the answers they need on local services. Reorganisation will provide efficiency savings in organisational costs that can be directed towards frontline services, which we believe are the priority for taxpayers. There should not simply be the cost, in many cases, of such services existing. We also believe that it is right, from a democratic accountability point of view, that residents have a clearer line of sight on which body to hold to account for local decisions.

On the point about local government finance, which we absolutely understand and accept, we have worked hard and I would say we have been relatively successful on rebalancing the funding crisis in local government. We have done that by providing £5 billion of new money, taking the total allocation to £69 billion. We cannot undo 14 years of damage in six months—it has been damaging over the 14 years—but we are now bridging to that multi-year settlement where we can really begin to repair the foundations. I think we have made progress on that.

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

There is no doubt that local government needs significant reform, and Lib Dems are passionate about putting power into the hands of local communities, but we are concerned that rather than producing true devolution, these plans will end up as a top-down diktat from Whitehall. MPs and district councillors from areas including Devon, Surrey and the midlands have told me that submissions appear to have been made without their district councils being involved or consulted, and without the opportunity to undertake consultation with residents and businesses. What steps are the Government taking to ensure that they engage meaningfully with every level of councils?

Councils such as Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole, which I used to lead, face Hobson’s choice. Tonight, councillors will be voting on whether to join proposals to their east or their west, neither of which reflect their urban needs or their distinct character. Or do they sit it out and hope for the best? What plans do the Government have to ensure that residents will have the democratic ability to decide on the right devolution plan for them? Can the Minister confirm, given that these plans will take more than a year to implement, that all the elections due in May 2025 will go ahead?

I do not want to disregard the good work of district councils in this conversation about reorganisation, and about redirecting money to operational costs on the frontline, so that taxpayers get better value for money and see the benefit in their local public services. I pay tribute to council officials, frontline workers and councillors, whether they are in unitaries, counties or districts, for their work. I just set out the view that the best way to achieve efficiency is by having more streamlined local government structures that enable money to go to the frontline.

On whether district councils will have a voice in the process, it is a fact that we have received requests for reorganisation, and statutory invitations go out at the end of the month, but it would be usual for the Government to be faced with a number of options for what those new boundaries might look like. The county might have a view about how many councils should be included in the reorganisation, and I suspect that districts might have a very different view.

It would be quite usual for a number of different proposals to come forward for a county. It is for the Government to try to strike a balance that takes into consideration identity, efficiency and having an anchor to the area that makes sense. We genuinely want this to be a collaborative process, so that we get the right outcome for local people.

As the Minister is aware, I was a district council leader in Lancashire until 5 July, when I got the Avanti train down to Westminster. As I have said for many years, the challenge we face is that the two-tier system does not work. It confuses our residents. The Local Government Association’s map of the different structures of local government in England is a mishmash, and it does not work. West Lancashire and South Ribble borough councils have put forward detailed proposals for local government reorganisation to the Minister, but the Conservative-run county council has not. My concern is that some elections will be cancelled and some will not. On the priority programme, will the Minister please consider enforcing the cancellation of all elections in places where he is moving forward quickly with reorganisation?

When my hon. Friend said he got the Avanti train down on 5 July, I think the Chamber was half expecting him to say that he had only just arrived, but he has been here for some time.

I know there are different views in Lancashire on what a good outcome looks like, and there are certainly different views on what a good process looks like, but I think there is a shared view that the time has come for devolution in Lancashire. When people look to Greater Manchester and the Liverpool city region, and see that Cumbria and Cheshire are organising to be part of the next stage, of course they want to be part of that. Lancashire is unique, in that we were already in discussions with it about its timetable and process. The level 2 agreement that is in place of course comes with investment, funding and other powers. Lancashire has agreed that by autumn, it will submit proposals to the Government that reconcile its organisational status; it will also bring forward a plan to move forward with a mayoral combined authority. Lancashire took the view that given that the timetable was already in place, it did not need to request that the election be cancelled.

To be clear, we absolutely see Lancashire as part of our priority work. It is critical. The prize for the north of England is completing the work on Cheshire, Lancashire and Cumbria, so that the whole north of England has mayoral devolution. That will be game-changing.

I draw Members’ attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

In the devolution White Paper, the Government set half a million people as the appropriate size for these new councils. Can the Minister therefore rule out creating big super-councils that represent more than a million people? Will he meet me to discuss devolution and local government reorganisation in Hertfordshire?

It is important that the Government set out the framework. We were very directive in the White Paper about our view on reorganisation and devolution. In every conversation we had with the LGA, the County Councils Network, the District Councils Network and others, we heard that the worst outcome would be the White Paper speaking to an issue without going close to clarifying what outcome we want. The response to the priority programme has been reflective of that clear direction.

We were up front in saying that, for efficiency, new unitary authorities should have a population of around 500,000, but we also made it clear that if the reorganisation went hand in hand with devolution, a degree of flexibility would be needed to make sure we balanced strategic oversight of the combined or strategic authority with the local identity and sense of belonging that people need. I also make it clear that it does not matter whether we are talking about councils going through reorganisation, or about existing councils and metropolitan authorities, be they in London or the north of England. Wherever they are, we expect councils to organise their neighbourhoods and communities, local public services and democratic engagement so that people feel more power in the place where they live.

My residents in Crayford, in the London borough of Bexley, have their services provided by one council, but in many cases, residents on the same road have their services provided by two councils—by Kent county council and Dartford borough council—which causes confusion, as the Minister said. Does he agree that the changes introduced in the English devolution Bill will make local government more effective and save money for those taxpayers?

That is exactly what this is about. This is the most ambitious reorganisation in England for at least 50 years, maybe longer. We need to avoid the sense that this is just rearranging the local government deckchairs. It is not about that. The devolution White Paper is ambitious, and that ambition is about wresting power from Westminster and Parliament and putting it in the hands of communities up and down the country. For far too long, power has been held in a very narrow way by a handful of people, at the exclusion of millions of people in this country. Frankly, people have had enough, so we have to find a different route.

I am fortunate to work with two local authorities, Basingstoke and Deane borough council and Test Valley borough council, which, after many decades of careful stewardship, are debt-free and have significant assets on their balance sheets, to the benefit of their residents. What will the Minister do in this local government reorganisation to protect that legacy? Would it not be profoundly unfair if those many years of careful stewardship were wiped out by amalgamation with more profligate neighbouring councils?

It is not my intention to set one council against another. When areas begin to look at what new unitary boundaries might look like, they will need a view on identity, scale and achieving efficiency, and, ultimately, what construct will deliver good public services, be it adult social care, children’s services or those neighbourhood services that, in many places, have been eroded to the point where people wonder if they exist at all.

We have to rebuild from the ground up. This process, regardless of a council’s debt or financial status, is part of that rebuilding. Let us be honest: nobody in this Chamber, or in this Government, can put a number or this. We do not know what the outcome will be. If this is genuinely about local areas self-organising and presenting to Government their view of what a good outcome would be, we need to be open about that.

Local government reorganisation and full devolution is long overdue, and I believe it will bring many benefits to Norfolk and Norwich. In Norwich North, just as my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Daniel Francis) said, one council might collect the bins on one side of the street, and another collects them on the other side. Building on the questions from Opposition Members, can the Minister reassure us that cities like Norwich will have a strong voice in this process, and will have their voices heard on the key economic drivers?

That is a very important point, and I pay tribute to MPs in Suffolk and Norfolk for the work that they have done in making the case for greater devolution of powers. I also pay tribute to county and district councils for the cross-party political leadership that they have shown in pursuit of devolution. Members will know that the original agreement for both Norfolk and Suffolk was not one to which the Government could agree, for a number of reasons that have been identified. However, the commitment from leaders in the area to finding a way through is appreciated and valued, and we will honour that in the next steps.

We absolutely believe that in large parts of the country—I see it in Exeter, Lincoln, Ipswich and Norwich—we have important economic anchors in cities that previously have not had a seat at the devolution table because they have been district councils. We have to deal with that as we go forward.

Will the Minister update the House on the capacity in his Department to manage these reorganisations? He spoke about the deadline having passed, and having received expressions of interest. How many can his Department manage at any one time? What will be the determining factor in which ones are chosen to progress now?

The Department stands ready to support local areas, both on devolution and on local government reorganisation, and will make sure that there is a genuine partnership when it comes to ensuring that capacity. We will not just rely on local areas to find it; we will work together on that.

We will have to present the information the hon. Member refers to on another date, not today. Until we know what the final programme is, we will not know what is required to deliver it. There is no arbitrary upper limit. Nevertheless, we need to be realistic that there is a high bar on devolution and reorganisation, and we can only allow forward plans that have a credible proposal for devolution. If plans are less developed when it comes to devolution, then even if other parts of them are compelling, and do things that we would want to see come about, politically, I am afraid that cannot stand. They have to be credible plans that ultimately lead to fulfilling the ambition for devolution, and that will be the priority.

The historical bankruptcy in Thurrock, from which my constituents are still suffering, is symptomatic of a system of local government that is letting people down badly. Devolution and reorganisation represent a once-in-a-generation opportunity to capitalise on growing opportunities in Essex, deliver better value and improve services. Does the Minister agree that reorganisation is the right step, and this is the right time? It will allow us to move on from the broken system and deliver more power and opportunities to communities in places such as Thurrock.

My hon. Friend will know that there are particular issues in Thurrock, relating to historical decisions taken in that local authority. We believe that efficiencies can be garnered through reorganisation, and that if we redirect money to neighbourhood services that people can see and feel, their satisfaction with local government and local public services will increase. We also accept, though, that some systemic problems are not addressed by reorganisation alone; in the end, the multi-year settlement and the funding reforms that are taking place will have to be the foundation for that.

The people of Gloucestershire are expecting elections this May to their county council. If that is not to happen, will the Minister tell us precisely when the date will be decided, for all the reasons so excellently set out by my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds)?

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. Clarity is important for areas; they need to know whether they will go ahead with elections so that they can organise. We seek to give clarity by the end of the month, so in a couple of weeks at most.

I associate myself with the excellent remarks of my Lancashire colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Mr Foster), and I thank the Minister for recognising the massive opportunity that reorganisation and devolution presents for Lancashire. It has been held back for many years by our inability to come together and move forward. Given that we now have an ongoing devolution process, and genuine proposals for reorganisation that are supported by a majority of councils across the county and by MPs, and given the significant costs of holding local elections—£3 million in the case of Lancashire, which could fill an awful lot of potholes—it feels like Lancashire county council’s refusal to put forward a proposal to cancel the upcoming May elections is about self-interest and short-term political imperatives being put ahead of the needs of residents. Does the Minister agree that it is regrettable, to say the least, that the request has not come forward, and that we should not hold those elections, but put the needs of residents first?

I will be careful. When we came into government six months ago, I was clear that we needed to reset the relationship between central and local government. For many years in opposition, I observed Governments parading around instances of councils that were in disagreement in a very public way, and I thought that undermined the system as a whole. While it might not always be possible, where there are differences of views, they should probably be aired in private and not in Parliament, from a ministerial point of view.

Even though there are differences in Lancashire about pace, potentially, and about what a good outcome might be, there is at least agreement that devolution is the right thing for the county, and that having the same powers as Greater Manchester and the Liverpool city region could be game changing for Lancashire’s economy and local jobs. When I say “local jobs”, I mean skilled, decent work that gives people pride of place; that is absolutely central to this Government. Let us focus on agreement, and put some of the disagreements to one side. However, I take on board my hon. Friend’s local perspective entirely.

I am pleased to see that Staffordshire is not on the list and that we will have our county elections this May. The Minister will know, however, that my constituents do not want to be subsumed into greater Stoke-on-Trent. Will he give them some reassurance—any at all—that they will have the choice and can say no if they do not want to be part of greater Stoke-on-Trent?

I quite like Stoke-on-Trent; I am not sure what the local disputes are there. Maybe that is something not to go into. Focusing instead on process, that change would require consultation, and every area that has had a devolution agreement and eventually a mayoral election has had that consultation take place. There was some recent polling that said that the public were more likely to be supportive of the mayoral model of government if they had a mayor already in place, because they could see the benefit. In the end, how we reconcile the situation England will require compromise in some places. I say that because England is unique, it is diverse and, from an identity point of view, there is much that different areas have in common but there are some contradictions too. It is our job, through the course of building this out, to work at a local level to try and find the right solutions. That commitment is firm.

Order. The House will see that we have a lot of Members to try and get in, and I need to finish this urgent question by 2.15 pm. Will the Minister and other Members keep that in mind when answering and asking questions?

The reason I am in this place and my absolute priority is to ensure that we deliver good public services to the people of North East Derbyshire, through well-run government with representatives who are invested in their local community and held to account. Will the Minister assure me that any discussions over reorganisation will include local boroughs and districts, and that any agreement reached will make sure that we reflect both those priorities?

The request can come in for reorganisation, but the Government’s role from the point at which we start the statutory invitation process becomes quasi-judicial. We therefore need to make sure we steer well clear of defining what outcome we want because we are, in effect, neutral in that process. It is our job to receive proposals as they come forward, and it could well be that the county and district councils put forward entirely different proposals. It is our job to make sure we consider both on an equal basis.

As the Minister knows, the former administration at Woking borough council racked up debts of £2.1 billion. That money will never be fully repaid to the Government, but surrounding local authorities are anxious that as part of reorganisation they might have to share that debt. Will the Minister confirm how the Government will handle debt in Woking, Surrey and elsewhere as part of the reorganisation? Also, will he agree to write off Woking’s unsustainable debts to ensure that reorganisation happens sensibly?

Agreeing to write off £2 billion of debt at the Dispatch Box would be quite career-limiting, I would say. I can say, however, that the scale of the financial challenge in some areas is absolutely understood and we will work to try and find a solution. We are not yet at the point of announcing that, however.

In Hartlepool, 75% of every penny spent by the council is spent on social care. That is contributing to a burden on council taxpayers in Hartlepool that is far too high. Does the Minister agree that in the wider local government reorganisation, consideration needs to be given to regional collaboration on social care or, indeed, removing social care from local government altogether to ease the burden on council tax payers?

My hon. Friend will be aware that Dame Louise Casey is conducting a broader review of adult social care for reasons that are well understood by the House. On whether the matter should or should not sit with local government, I will say that where local government really excels is in being local and rooted in the community, in being the deliverer of a public service and in being able to organise at a place level. That does make a difference, and we should not underestimate the impact when done well. We need to make sure that social services are adequately funded for the work they have to do to provide a good level of service for local people.

Across Basildon and Billericay, my residents are concerned about the idea of two years of delay while massive reorganisation goes on locally. Will the Minister provide reassurance that the local plan for 27,000 new houses across the area, which has just been consulted on, will not suddenly be rushed through by a local council that will not exist in future, with residents having to live with the consequences for years to come?

I would say that, given our housing crisis, 27,000 new homes seems like good news to me, and we need to see more of that. Councils need to operate in a business as usual way, making sure that they get their business done. The worst outcome would be for councils going through a reorganisation to press pause on important items of business. That would be a complete absence of leadership.

One effect of creating more strategic authorities appears to be the splitting of transport and highways powers in more areas. Will the Minister provide assurances that this will not slow down the delivery of capital projects that are necessary to achieve economic growth?

No, that is certainly right. Our ambition is for acceleration, not for lagging behind, and we will make sure that no schemes are delayed as a result of reorganisation.

The Minister has quite rightly pointed out that residents across the country expect councillors to take a more strategic approach to deliver better services. My residents across Bromsgrove and its villages share that ambition. However, the biggest elephant in the room is the role of adult social care in the local government sector. Can the Minister outline to the House what decisions and what conversations are taking place across Government to address this so that future new councils, post reform, get off on the very best foot to improve their areas?

I feel that we have gone a long way to doing that, although we do accept that this is a bridging position to get us to the multi-year settlement. None the less, £3.7 billion of new money for adult social care in the settlement is a commitment laid out in pounds and pence in the way that local government has been asking for. We accept that there is a long way to go, and that councils need more support, but the Government are absolutely committed to rebuilding the foundations of local government and putting it on an even keel.

My hon. Friend makes a very good case for reorganisation, and I agree with him.

As the Minister will know, in Lincolnshire, where there are two unitaries as well as the county council, the three top-tier authorities have agreed on a package to go unitary. There are complications, because there is a ward boundary review going on in north-east Lincolnshire at the moment. Would the Minister consider cancelling that, as it seems a complete waste of resources? In the county council area, which covers roughly two thirds of the county, a mayoral election is taking place, and a new combined authority is being established this May. Given that, does he agree that it is important that elections go ahead to give the county a new mandate for what lies ahead?

From our perspective, we cannot allow the cancellation—or postponement, I would say—of elections to be driven by any political views. We are clear that this is an administrative process and it is about whether areas satisfy criteria that meet our devolution priority programme. Where areas are already in the programme because they have mayoral elections this year, it would be reasonable of me to say that we would need to see where the benefit is of elections being cancelled, given that devolution is taking place. But as I have said, we have only just received the proposals. We are taking time to review them, and we will make sure that is done in a fair way.

I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a serving district councillor for 13 years.

I broadly welcome the thrust of this document. My question is on a matter that the Minister has already referred to—areas that are serviced by a number of different local authorities, which mine is. I have a county council, two district councils, any number of parish councils, and Banbury town council—Labour-run for the first time ever. In those areas, there will be a wide variety of views as to what a local government reorganisation should look like, because different communities have different views. Can the Minister assure me that the fast-tracking and the speed of this process, which I acknowledge the reason for, will not lead to rushed proposals that do not take into account what communities actually feel and look like?

I can absolutely assure my hon. Friend of that. Let me just say that in 2019, 11 district council elections were cancelled to allow reorganisations to take place, and so were seven in 2020. In 2021, the elections of three county councils and three district councils were cancelled to allow reorganisation. I say that because we cannot allow people to think that this is, in any sense, something new that has come out of nowhere. This is the day-to-day business of reorganisation done in the right place, in the right way, with full public consultation.

Given the abject failure of devolution in both Scotland and Wales and the fact that the Americans fought a war of independence on the slogan “No taxation without representation”, my constituents of Great Yarmouth would like an answer to two questions. First, why should they continue to pay their council tax beyond May, when they will not be represented by elected people? And secondly, by what name do they call these unelected councillors after May?

We need to be clear that the members who will discharge the functions of the council and the executive have been elected. The idea that they are not elected is not accurate, and we need to be careful about the language that we use. I believe—I am sure the hon. Member believes—that most councillors are good public servants and go into local government for the right reasons to represent their community, and we should not be targeting them unnecessarily. To be clear, they were elected, and we might take the view that, if they meet the criteria, their period of office should be extended to allow election to a new shadow unitary authority. On that basis, I hope that local people will support it.

I thank the Minister for the level of engagement that he has given both me and my colleagues on this process since the English devolution White Paper was published. He will know that I have a high level of enthusiasm for local communities being given the ability to take more control of services in their area. Does he agree that devolution and reorganisation offers cities such as Exeter, Lincoln and elsewhere—the key economic drivers of this country—the opportunity to grow and invest sustainably in partnership with strategic authorities? Can he shed a bit more light on the process when a county council and a district council potentially disagree on the way forward?

It is quite usual for a county council and a district council to disagree on the way forward. From a Government point of view, we will consider proposals on an equal basis wherever they have come from—from a county council, a district council or a unitary authority that might change its boundaries. It is important that that is clear, because we want to make sure that, in the end, it is the right deal for local people, it is the right deal for taxpayers and it delivers good public services.

I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

How will the Minister avoid a fire sale of district and borough council assets once they are merged with county councils, which are crippled by the soaring cost of adult social care? Does he therefore agree with me that 2028 is too late?

We can only go as fast as the process allows. We can start the process early, and we have done that. We can give clarity early, and we are doing that. What we cannot do is to shortcut a legal process that requires adequate consultation, the development of proposals and a transfer of workforce and assets to a new unitary council. That must be done in the right way, which takes time. We absolutely understand the point about local community assets, which is why community asset protection and the community right to buy are so central to our agenda going forward.

The Minister will recall, I hope, the concerns that I outlined the last time he was before the House. Efficiencies, as he put it, and improved services are of course important, but so too are local identities and existing communities. With that in mind—I have asked him this before—how will we ensure that local identities are protected? Will he meet me to discuss the impact that these proposals might have on the ancient and loyal borough of Newcastle-under-Lyme?

The point that my hon. Friend makes about balancing identity is as much about culture and approach as it is about where boundaries for councils are drawn. Sometimes, the identity of a council will match closely with the identity of a place, but often it does not. In urban, rural or coastal areas, many communities are far more nuanced or localised, and there can be some quite tense local neighbourhood disputes as a result. Any reorganisation has to respect the historic locally felt identity of every part of the new area, not just the area in which its headquarters might be based or that its council might be named after, and holding firm on that has to be part of the approach.

The Government’s timetable is wholly inadequate. Given that the previous deal that Norfolk negotiated was scrapped without any consultation, how will the public be consulted on any changes going forward, and does the Minister accept that a minimum population of half a million may not be appropriate in rural areas, to avoid councils being very remote from the people they serve?

We tackled that head on in the White Paper, which said that, for efficiency, the minimum population will be 500,000, but was clear in the same paragraph that—this is where devolution goes hand in hand with reorganisation—there needs to be some flexibility for the reasons that the hon. Member set out. That is our firm commitment.

Kent county council has opted to go on the priority programme and cancel elections this May; I guess turkeys do not vote for Christmas. The timetable going forward is a little confused. We will have mayorals in 2027, unitaries in 2028, and then it stands up later on. Could the Minister give some more detail on that? If the process is stretched out like that, Conservative Kent county councillors will be in power for seven years. Judging by my inbox, the people of Kent are absolutely appalled by that. I would be grateful for more details.

From the Government’s point of view, acting in a legal, quasi-judicial way, we have to take such decisions on the value of the evidence and the proposals. It is not our job to get involved in the politics of whether the Liberal Democrats want to see the back of the Tories but the Tories want to avoid an election, or vice versa. It is our job to play with a straight bat, and look at the benefits of the proposals. Kent has applied, but we are going through the process of screening applications to ensure that they are realistic proposals for devolution and LGR that hold together. If they meet those criteria, we will support them. If they do not, we will not.

Despite what senior county councillors are telling Ministers, there is absolutely no clamour in Essex for devolution—quite the reverse. Nor do the public support the Government’s proposal to cancel the local elections; that is anti-democratic. If the Government do press ahead, why do we not take the opportunity to have a county-wide referendum in Essex to see whether the public—the council tax payers—really support this? They can vote for massive change or to remain as they are. If there is such a referendum—I never thought these words would pass my lips—I will gladly vote remain.

I think the right hon. Member is getting at the fact that there will be a range of views on this issue, but it is the Government’s job to give direction, and we believe that efficiencies can be drawn out. When asked, I think local people would say that they would much rather that local neighbourhood services are maintained and grown, rather than bear the overhead costs of organisations that exist for the sake of it. It is for the consultation, and the proposals, to draw out the best outcome in the process.

I welcome the theory of simplifying local government, but I am concerned about the pace at which the Government are trying to move. Devon has a very complicated landscape, with Labour-run cities, a Conservative-run county and many Liberal Democrat districts. Conflicting proposals have already been submitted to the Government by the districts and the county, so can the Minister explain how the Government will adjudicate between those conflicting proposals and decide which one will come out on top?

We will see what comes forward from local areas. In some areas, there may well be a general consensus on the number of unitary authorities, but varying views on the boundary lines. In other areas, we can perhaps expect there to be entire disagreement on both the number of councils that should follow from the proposals and the boundaries that would be drawn as a result. At this stage, all we can say is let us see what comes forward. We will try to make the right decision by balancing identity, efficiency and the relationship to devolution going forward.

We already knew that the Government wanted to abolish our local district and borough councils in Leicestershire without consulting local people. We now know that the proposal will involve a significant expansion of the boundaries of the city of Leicester—something demanded by the Mayor of Leicester that would lead to significantly higher council tax for my residents. Within days, thousands of local people have signed a petition started by me and other local MPs who are against the proposal, including my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Alicia Kearns), who cannot be here today. My local districts and boroughs are against it, so will the Government at least agree to hold a local referendum in Leicestershire before imposing this proposal from London that local people do not want?

A theme is developing of campaigning for elections to bodies that some wish will not exist in the future—that sounds familiar—and for referendums being the answer to some of this. It is about local leaders showing leadership. I understand completely that there are different views, but I am impressed by the leadership being shown by Labour, the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats and others, because local leaders believe in their place and want the best outcome for it. I will leave the local politics to them. It is our job to ensure that we assess the proposals that come forward on a fair basis.

My constituents are well served by the fiscal stewardship of their district council of Elmbridge, and are rightly concerned that they will be forced to take on the debt of neighbouring councils such as Woking. Equally, they are looking forward to the May elections, and kicking Conservative Surrey out. Does the Minister not agree that leaders taking devolution forward should have a democratic mandate, and will he reassure my constituents that any unitary moves will be paused until the question of debt is sorted out?

We certainly accept, particularly in the case of Woking, where the debt is significant, standing at over £2 billion, that the question of debt has to be addressed through the process, but it is for the process to address it. We cannot say up front how we will treat debt in different areas, because every area is different. I do not think that any Member would expect us to do that.

I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

Residents of the Isle of Wight are expecting full elections this May. The no-overall-control unitary authority has asked the Government to be part of a priority devolution deal with Hampshire, but not local authority reorganisation, which is not on the table. We are not being asked to do that because we are already a unitary. Does the Minister agree, therefore, that there is no good reason to delay elections when the Isle of Wight council’s future and viability is not under discussion? That is an accepted point. Why should a democracy have to have elections when the council will continue?

I think that is a fair point, and I will take it away.

Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire are working together collaboratively on the Heart of Wessex devolution deal and hope to be on the devolution priority programme, but there is still some uncertainty over what decision Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole will make. Can the Minister confirm that the decision to include the Wessex proposal will not be held back, depending on the BCP decision?

We have to stick to the principles of the White Paper, because that informs the legislation that will come later this year. We are very clear in the criteria that we will not, and cannot, agree to any devolution proposals that create orphans that cannot be resolved. We expect that local leaders will come together and do what is right, given the geography of their place, to deliver devolution as soon as possible.

Cheltenham has had a voice since Victoria was on the throne, and we need to be reassured by the Minister that we will retain that voice as part of any devolution and local government reorganisation. Otherwise, power will simply be taken away from my community and given either to Gloucester or as far away as Bristol, with a new regional mayor. Can the Minister reassure me that localism will be part of his agenda too?

The hon. Member makes a fair point. We are clear in the White Paper that we want to see devolution rolled out at an ambitious pace. We are doing that, and are pleased with the responses that we have had. We want to see local government reorganisation because we believe that efficiencies can be drawn out and reinvested back into frontline services that people see, feel and value. We also accept that that cannot be at the cost of local people feeling connected and empowered in the places where they live. Local empowerment and powers for the local community are central to the White Paper, and to our agenda going forward.

My constituents in Harrogate and Knaresborough recently underwent local government reorganisation. As part of that, the North Yorkshire (Structural Changes) Order 2022 granted five years to develop a new North Yorkshire council-wide local plan. Work on local district plans halted to prioritise that new plan, which has now been compromised by the introduction of new housing targets under the national planning policy framework.

Will councils undergoing new rounds of local government reorganisation receive transitional arrangements, or will they fall into the same trap as Harrogate and Knaresborough and North Yorkshire, where speculative planning applications will see endless concreting over the green belt and issues with getting housing where we actually need it, rather than where we want it? Will the Minister meet me to discuss the legacy issues of that local government reorganisation, and outline what lessons have been learned from previous reorganisations?

The hon. Member is conflating two separate issues. One is the process of reorganisation, and his area of Harrogate has been through that process, including the postponement of elections to facilitate it. On housing development, if he wants to stop speculative development and to have control of what is built in local communities in Harrogate, the best way to achieve that is to have a plan in place where developers can be held to account.

I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

Talking of localism, district councils provided a useful amount of local accountability. How will the Minister ensure that local accountability continues when the regional identity may be different? May I also ask about the future of towns and parishes, which are not mentioned at all, and neither are national park authorities? How will those be empowered to have more local responsibility?

The White Paper was directive on this issue. I can only assume the hon. Gentleman has not read it, or he got bored and gave up halfway through—I will leave him to answer that. Over quite a long period of time, councillors have been relegated to the back benches if they are not in the cabinet, and we do not believe that is right going forward. We want local councillors to be frontline councillors, community conveyors, leading in their local communities and getting things done. However we marshal the system—regardless of the size of the council, where it is, whether it is a unitary council in a met area or a reorganised council in a shire county—localism has to be at its heart.

I thank the Minister for his answers to this urgent question. He is outlining a clear policy and strategy for the way forward, and we welcome that. The papers today are full of calls for debt cancellations for English councils, which do not provide much relief to those councils that have sought to stretch moneys and resources to make ends meet, rather than ramping up debt with vanity projects. How can the Minister ensure that reorganisation assists councils to prioritise people over policy?

I thought I was going to get a request to reorganise Newtownards—I have got enough on my plate with England! The point the hon. Gentleman makes about the treatment of debt is important, and we understand there are pressures. In most places, the treatment of accrued debt is manageable within the geography, but we accept there are outliers—Woking and Thurrock have been mentioned—where the debt that has been built up is significant and that we need to take a view on that. We are not at that stage yet until we see what proposal will be developed further.

I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. There is a strong case for devolution in Norfolk. However, can the Minister confirm that holding elections in May does not prevent devolution for Norfolk, and would he agree that Norfolk’s voters should be allowed to have their say on who is taking forward our devolution negotiations?

We need to separate out that the devolution priority programme is one stream and the local government reorganisation programme is another. We are trying to bring those streams alongside each other, recognising that they are to a degree separate processes, so that at key points in the decision-making process, they come together to ensure transparency and clarity and so people know what timetable we are working to. I accept to a point that they can be decoupled, but the two are linked. If we are going to reorganise and move towards mayoral combined authorities, we have to bring them in line to ensure that it is a programme that makes sense in the round.

People in North East Hampshire have told me loud and clear that they want their democratic right to vote in May. Given that councillors up for re-election were elected in May 2021, does the Minister think they still have a mandate to make decisions for their local communities?

If we decide to postpone the elections based on a credible plan that moves devolution and reorganisation along, the councillors who have their terms extended are legitimate and have the powers and rights of any other councillor. As I have said, we need to be careful that we do not undermine the democratic process by trying to portray councillors who believe in their communities and who by and large are doing a good job, regardless of party politics, as somehow not there by right. They have been elected; it just so happens that in some places their term will be extended by a short period.

Residents in Surrey Heath face the prospect of cancelled elections, forced unitarisation and then forced amalgamation into a new western Surrey unitary authority, if the leader of Surrey county council gets his way. That western unitary authority would inherit £5 billion of debt. I am sure the Minister will agree that in seeking a new sense of identity for west surrey, a shared sense of bankruptcy was not what we were looking for, but that is the prospect we face. What would the Minister say to my residents, who played no part in accumulating that debt but who may in the future play a part in paying it off?

We have covered the hon. Member’s point about debt. Perhaps he has scars from coalitions of the past, but I suggest that now is a time to come together and put party interests to one side.