PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE
Topical Questions - 11 March 2025 (Commons/Commons Chamber)

The Government inherited prisons on the point of collapse and a record and rising backlog in our courts. Eight months into office, the work of restoring justice in this country is well under way. Since the last Justice questions, I have announced record investment in our courts, and next year Crown courts will sit for up to 110,000 days, which is the highest allocation in recorded history. I have also announced vital reforms to the probation service, increasing its focus on medium and high-risk offenders, alongside recruiting 1,300 new probation officers.

I also visited Texas, where a tough and smart approach has reduced reoffending, cut crime to its lowest levels in the US since the 1960s, and brought its prison population under control. There is much that we will learn from that law and order state, particularly how we get offenders to turn their backs on a life of crime. Through our plan for change, the Government are delivering swifter justice, using punishment to cut crime, and making our streets safer.

On average, more than 130 people every week across the UK die from drug-related causes. That is more than 6,500 families and homes devasted each year by that tragic loss of life, including more than 200 in Northern Ireland alone. Will the Secretary of State commit to working with each of the devolved Administrations to prioritise prevention and review enforcement against the use of all illegal substances?

The hon. Gentleman makes an incredibly important point. Fixing the problems that he notes requires work by not just the Ministry of Justice, but the devolved Administrations and the Home Office. I will ensure that he can engage with the relevant Ministers on the issues he raises.

We recognise the unique and challenging role that prison officers play in protecting the public and reducing reoffending. The Lord Chancellor has requested advice from officials on the pension age of prison officers, and we will continue to engage with trade unions as we work through this complex issue while considering the wider fiscal context. I am meeting the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan) to discuss this important issue next week, and I am very happy for my hon. Friend to join that meeting if he wishes.

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

Yesterday, the Sentencing Council issued a letter correcting the Justice Secretary. It made it clear that the new sentencing guidelines were not the same as the draft guidance under the last Government and explained that her Department supported the new two-tier guidance—her representative was at the meeting—and it was approved on 24 January. Her officials were even given a walkthrough on 3 March—a dummy’s guide to two-tier justice. After I brought that to her attention last Wednesday, her team briefed the papers that she was “incandescent”. Was she incandescent at her officials or at her own failure to read her papers and do her job properly?

The shadow Lord Chancellor’s amnesia continues, because he clearly has not done his homework; he has forgotten that his Government were consulted extensively on this guidance. It also appears that he cannot read, because the letter states very clearly all the consultation that took place under his Government. It shows that they were consulted numerous times on the new guidance and welcomed it—I notice that he did not refer to that. He knows full well that the change he refers to is a minor change, because the reference to race, ethnicity and cultural backgrounds has been retained in the time his Government seeing it and the changes that occurred, so he cannot hide behind that. The last few days have therefore been an expert lesson from the right hon. Gentleman: he has taught us all how to throw the shadow Transport Secretary under a bus.

As a lawyer herself, I would have thought that the Justice Secretary would know the difference between the last set of guidance and the new one. I say “as a lawyer,” but in this Cabinet we never really know who is a real lawyer and who is just pretending to be one. In 21 days’ time, by the Justice Secretary’s own admission, we will have two-tier justice. Her plan to fix that will not come into effect for a year, and that is unacceptable. As she has been too lazy to do her job, I will do it for her. Today I am presenting a Bill to block these two-tier sentencing guidelines and fix her mess; it is here and ready to go. Will she support it? Will she stand with us on the Conservative Benches for equality under the law, or will it be two-tier justice with her and two-tier Keir?

The whole House can see that the only pretence at a job is the one that the shadow Lord Chancellor is making, because he is pretending to be the Leader of the Opposition. We all know exactly what he is about. My reaction to what has happened in relation to the Sentencing Council’s guidelines was very clear when I made the oral statement last week in this House: we will never stand for a two-tier approach to sentencing. I am actually getting on with fixing the problem, rather than looking for a bandwagon to jump on, which is why I have already written to the Sentencing Council. I will be meeting it later this week, and I have made it very clear that I will consider its role and its powers. If I need to legislate, I will do so, but I will ensure that whatever changes I bring forward are workable and deliver the fair justice system that we all need and deserve—one that his Government did not deliver.

I notice that in all his references to letters, the shadow Lord Chancellor did not refer to the letter from the previous sentencing Minister, now the shadow Transport Secretary, who welcomed those guidelines. He knows full well that that was a reference to the guidelines around race, ethnicity and cultural background.

The hon. Lady raises an important point. That is why I set up the Women’s Justice Board specifically to make recommendations—I believe that these are policy choices that are properly made by directly elected politicians. We will make progress on the situation of women in our prisons, particularly those who are mothers, because we know that the harm passes down generations, and we are determined to stop it.

I thank my hon. Friend for that very important question. As part of our manifesto, we committed to fast-tracking rape cases through the system. We are carefully considering the best way to do so, and we will be able to say more about our plans shortly. We are also creating independent legal advisers for adult rape victims, who will be able to access that support at any point from report to trial, so that they know their rights and their rights are protected.

What I can tell the hon. Gentleman is that this Government have made faster progress than the previous Government on the deportation of foreign national offenders from our prisons, with numbers that are over 20% higher than the same time last year, and we will keep moving forward.

I am sorry to hear about that tragic case in my hon. Friend’s constituency. Encouraging or assisting suicide is an offence under the Suicide Act 1961, and sending communications that encourage or assist serious self-harm is an offence under the Online Safety Act 2023, but we are going to tighten up the law to address the situation that my hon. Friend has described. Of course, this is about not just the law, but the enforcement of the law as well.

As the Lord Chancellor has said, our priority is delivering swifter justice for victims and bearing down on the Crown court backlog. That is why we have asked Sir Brian Leveson to consider all options, which have to include reclassification of offences and the intermediate court. We have to have a whole-system reform, but I fear that if we were to exclude those options, we would not be gripping the problem.

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and the Ministry of Justice will play a full part in the inter-ministerial group.

I welcome the Secretary of State’s attempts to prevent the Sentencing Council from changing the sentencing process, which would lead to a two-tier justice system. If, however, the council will not budge—as appears to be the case—a two-tier justice system will arrive in just 21 days, contradicting the key principle of the legal system that everyone should be equal before the law without discrimination. Will the Secretary of State introduce legislation immediately to ensure that that two-tier justice system does not come about?

I have already set out exactly what I am going to do. I have written to the Sentencing Council, using the powers that I have to do so, and I will be meeting it later this week. I have made it very clear that I will consider its role and powers, and if I need to legislate, I will not hesitate to do so.

One of my constituents has endured prolonged financial abuse due to drawn-out divorce financial order proceedings, which largely ignore domestic abuse except in rare cases. Will the Minister commit to reviewing financial settlement proceedings guidance to ensure that the impact of domestic abuse is properly considered, and to prevent the legal system from being used as a tool of continued coercion and control?

I thank my hon. Friend for his important question, and my thoughts are with his constituent as she navigates this difficulty. The Government will consider carefully the 2024 report on financial provision on divorce, in which the Law Commission looked into the specific issue of domestic abuse as a factor. Later this year the Government will consult on the delivery of our manifesto commitment to strengthen the rights and protections of cohabiting couples, because all abuse is abuse, financial or otherwise.

When someone enters this country illegally from another country to which we are not allowed to deport them, and when they have previously expressed support for terrorism and terrorist organisations, but not in this jurisdiction, is the Secretary of State content that the Government have enough powers to protect the community from such a person walking free in our society?

The right hon. Gentleman raises an incredibly important point. I am discussing with the Home Secretary the full range of powers that we need to have at our disposal, and she has already made it clear that we will not hesitate to act further if we need to. However, it is important that we are able to deport offenders who pose a risk to our country.

Last week, at a Justice Committee hearing, it was confirmed that an effective probation service is essential to the rehabilitation of offenders and to prevent reoffending. However, over the years the service has been under immense strain owing to increased demand. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to ensure that probation officers have manageable caseloads, and that support is provided for their mental health and wellbeing to avoid high levels of stress and burnout, and also to help with the recruitment and retention of staff?

Let me take this opportunity to pay tribute to the probation service. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the chaotic running of the service under the last Government. We are actively monitoring the effectiveness of the probation reset policy and assessing its impact on workload capacity, the time saved, and the increased focus on individuals posing the highest risk to public safety. We recognise the significant pressure that probation officers have been under, which is why comprehensive wellbeing support models have been put in place across our services, including dedicated wellbeing leads for both prison and probation services.

What work is the Secretary of State doing with the Victims’ Commissioner to ensure that the families of British citizens who are murdered abroad have the same rights as the families of homicide victims in the United Kingdom?

I regularly meet both the Victims’ Commissioner for England and Wales and the London Victims’ Commissioner to consider all issues affecting victims and their families. We are strengthening the powers of the Victims’ Commissioner through legislation, we will be strengthening the victims code, and we will of course consider any other measures that are needed to protect victims and their families wherever they may be.

On several occasions I have met my constituent Beverley, whose son suffered a horrific murder. He was stabbed more than 140 times. She has been desperately attempting to get hold of the court transcripts, but to no avail. Will Ministers please meet me to help this still grieving mum?

I am really horrified to hear of that case. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, the transcript of sentencing remarks should have been made available free of charge, but I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss how transcripts of trials more broadly can be made available.

On Radio 4’s “Today” programme last week, Matthew Ryder KC, who sits as a judge, praised the extreme helpfulness of pre-sentencing reports for passing effective sentences. Will the Secretary of State do as he asks and endorse the importance, value and independence of the Sentencing Council?

We all agree across the House, I hope, that pre-sentencing reports play a vital role in ensuring that whoever is passing a sentence has all the relevant facts at their disposal. I do not believe that access to such reports, or whether a sentencer asks for them, should be dictated by race or ethnic background. They should be made available, and I would like to see more use of pre-sentencing reports across the board for every type of offender.

Manchester Metropolitan University estimates that over 1,000 people are convicted under joint enterprise each year, costing the taxpayer £1.2 billion. Does the Minister agree that we need to amend the law on joint enterprise to free up spaces in our prisons?

The law on joint enterprise has already developed somewhat since the previous Court of Appeal decision. I know that the Director of Public Prosecutions is keeping under review how prosecuting decisions are made. At this point we have no plans to go further, but I am happy to ensure that my hon. Friend can meet the relevant Minister.

Across the United Kingdom, inquests are defined as being for the purpose of finding out who the deceased was, and how, when and where they died; they are not trials and they are not about assigning blame, even when they are extended into article 2 investigations. Yet in Northern Ireland we have had findings of blame in respect of SAS soldiers killing active terrorists. Does the Minister agree that the Crime and Policing Bill affords an opportunity, through suitable amendment, to bring uniformity to the operation of inquests across the United Kingdom?

The hon. and learned Gentleman is right to confirm that an inquest should be an inquisitorial process. It should not be adversarial either. I will raise the issue that he has mentioned with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, but what is deemed to be in scope of legislation is a matter for the House authorities and the Leader of the House.

Prison maintenance privatisation has been a complete and utter disaster. When will it be taken back in-house?

We are investing approximately £500 million over two years in prison and probation service maintenance to improve conditions across our estate, but it is fair to say we have inherited a system in serious need of repair. The estimated cost of bringing the prison estate to a fair condition and maintaining it till the end of the decade is £2.8 billion. The programme is now under way, and we hope that we will make as much progress as possible.

If Members keep standing, it makes it easier for me.

One of the key objectives of the Sentencing Council is to ensure that there is parity of sentence up and down the country. It is a known fact that people from ethnic minorities sometimes get tougher custodial sentences than their white counterparts for similar offences. Given that, does the Lord Chancellor regret her attempt to discredit the considered and evidence-based conclusions of some of the most esteemed members of our judiciary when they published the guidelines on pre-sentencing reports?

What I am shocked about is that we can see a disparity in the overall cohort sentencing outcomes. Everybody accepts that we are not quite sure why it is happening, and there has not been sufficient curiosity over the last few years to work out why that is the case. My view is that if we can see a problem or think we have one, we need to get to the bottom of what is actually going on before we start coming up with broad policy solutions to fix that problem. I also think that some of these broad policy decisions are better made by Ministers, because we are directly elected individuals who will pay the price for the consequences of our choices. That is a conversation that I will pick up with the Sentencing Council when we meet later this week.

In 2020, Lorraine Cox was brutally murdered in Exeter. Her murderer dismembered her body, and as a result her family have never been able to fully lay Lorraine to rest. Her father, Tony Cox, has been campaigning for the implementation of Helen’s law 2, meaning that desecrating or concealing a body would become a separate criminal offence. Will the Minister meet me to discuss whether the implementation of Helen’s law 2 is possible?

I will happily meet my hon. Friend to discuss that further.

What are this Government doing to crack down on unqualified people representing themselves as solicitors?

As the hon. Member well knows, the solicitors profession is highly regulated. We have the Solicitors Regulation Authority, which itself is regulated by the Legal Services Board. All our professionals, whether they are practising in criminal or civil law, are highly respected and highly regulated, and we are indebted to them.

I was shocked to read the Sentencing Council’s response to the Secretary of State last night, with its arrogant tone. As she has said, this Parliament is sovereign, and the fact is that we have given too much power away to these unelected bodies in recent years. Can I reassure her of my support, and can she reassure me that she will not rest until we retain equality before the law?

I thank my hon. Friend. I am very much looking forward to my meeting with the Sentencing Council later this week. As I have made clear, I am looking into the roles and powers of the council, and I will not hesitate to legislate if I need to do so.

The two-tier sentencing guidelines take effect on 1 April. If the Lord Chancellor is sincere about having a justice system that treats everyone equally, will she not support our Bill to block the guidelines?

I have already made my position clear. I have written to the Sentencing Council, and I will be meeting it later this week. I am reviewing the roles and powers of the council, and I will not hesitate to legislate if I need to do so.

I call the Chair of the Select Committee.

Last month, the Justice Committee heard evidence from governors of prisons with some of the highest drug use rates in the country. From detecting drones to body scanners and physical barriers, they all felt under-resourced in technology and investment. What is the Secretary of State doing to better equip prison staff to keep drugs out of prisons?

We have already pressed ahead with further measures on X-ray and baggage scanners, and we are taking action to deal with the problem of drones. My hon. Friend will be aware that, for security considerations, I am not going to give the detail of some of those mitigations and of our proposals for tackling drones, because they are used by those involved in serious organised crime. However, I can assure him that I, Ministers and all officials, including those working across the prison estate, are seized of this matter, and we are determined to crack down on drones bringing drugs into our prisons.